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    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    Jesus but i find the 'i know better' crew wearying

    Would you tell a professional how to do some part of his job? Solicitor or Consultant Doctor say?

    We've a tour to SA in the opening 3 games, we've two great coaches replacing FlaFel and a guy coming to help out before he starts his season in Australia. What's the noise on here? Oh but so and so's not going to get a run!

    Any chance of the euromillions numbers or what's gonna happen with Brexit so I can lay a few bets about the future too please?

    Either you trust the judgement of the people in charge or you don't, be they UL or Lansdowne Road based. For my money what Munster have done with eff all money compared to Sarries Racing or Toulon, and eff all player base compared to Leinster is remarkable. We are drawing good players and coaches all the time yet there is still nimbyism when the squad gets bolstered to perhaps ensure we get top of or conference by starting strongly in the league

    It's for experts to determine whose needed to make Munster win titles, and those experts are paid to do so. I'm just a spoofer with an opinion, no greater or lesser than anyone on here. But in the context I trust the paid people to do what's right and what's needed for the side to keep getting better

    If a lad is good enough he will keep someone else out of the side, don't matter where either is from for me.


    End of rant. Hon you Munster bastards.

    How dare fans question the coaches? After all they are infallible and have won so much.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
      Jesus but i find the 'i know better' crew wearying

      Would you tell a professional how to do some part of his job? Solicitor or Consultant Doctor say?

      We've a tour to SA in the opening 3 games, we've two great coaches replacing FlaFel and a guy coming to help out before he starts his season in Australia. What's the noise on here? Oh but so and so's not going to get a run!

      Any chance of the euromillions numbers or what's gonna happen with Brexit so I can lay a few bets about the future too please?

      Either you trust the judgement of the people in charge or you don't, be they UL or Lansdowne Road based. For my money what Munster have done with eff all money compared to Sarries Racing or Toulon, and eff all player base compared to Leinster is remarkable. We are drawing good players and coaches all the time yet there is still nimbyism when the squad gets bolstered to perhaps ensure we get top of or conference by starting strongly in the league

      It's for experts to determine whose needed to make Munster win titles, and those experts are paid to do so. I'm just a spoofer with an opinion, no greater or lesser than anyone on here. But in the context I trust the paid people to do what's right and what's needed for the side to keep getting better

      If a lad is good enough he will keep someone else out of the side, don't matter where either is from for me.

      End of rant. Hon you Munster bastards.
      If trusting those being paid was the only criteria for assessing things then this forum could be shut down tomorrow. In general I do trust the coaches to make the decisions. You can see in the other threads for example that I back Joe's judgement in picking Kleyn and McGrath ahead of Toner/Dillane and Marmion even though I don't fully understand it. I've even backed him picking Kearney ahead of TOH, Zebo or Conway.

      JvG was the one who offered Coombes and SOC senior contracts. JvG was the one who decided not to play them in the Celtic Cup. JvG is the one who is signing Jed to play ahead of them in the Pro14. I can respects any f those decisions individually whether I agree with them or not but collectively they don't stack up in my opinion. I've also backed up that opinion with the actual figures of caps and contracts from our closest competitor.

      All the talk about going to South Africa in the first few games is in my humble opinion bullsh!t. We have the Dragons at home up first and then we go to the Kings. If the coaching team can't win those two games without our internationals then they haven't got a rashers no matter how much they are being paid. The Cheetahs just won the Currie Cup and are a serious side again this year. There is no shame in losing to them at altitude and it won't derail our season if we do. We can learn a huge amount from the younger players performance in that kind of game. Then we have a 2 week break and when we play the Ospreys at the end of October there is a 50/50 chance that Kleyn and Beirne will be available as its a week after the QF, even if they are not we should again be able to take on the Ospreys with a pack of (Cronin, Marshall, Archer, Billy, Wyscherly, Botha, JOD and TOD with Boomer, o"Byrne, Scott, DOS/SOC, Cloete/Coombes/JOS on the bench). When we play Cardiff a week later there is a 75% chance that Kleyn, Beirne will be available and when we play Ulster the week after that the RWC is over and we need to be integrating the internationals back in before the HEC pool stages.

      Whether it is Jed, Coombes, Wycherley or SOC that take to the pitch over the next few months I'll shout them on. I've nothing against individuals who are trying to make a living and become the best players that they can be wherever they come from. So, while I generally try and keep it polite, you can take your accusations of NIMBYism (however you think that might be relevant in this context) and shove it where the sun don't shine. If you can't back up your opinion with anything more substantial than "believe" I'll treat it like I treat Boris' opinion about the backstop (and he is the paid professional too remember).

      Comment


        Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

        If trusting those being paid was the only criteria for assessing things then this forum could be shut down tomorrow. In general I do trust the coaches to make the decisions. You can see in the other threads for example that I back Joe's judgement in picking Kleyn and McGrath ahead of Toner/Dillane and Marmion even though I don't fully understand it. I've even backed him picking Kearney ahead of TOH, Zebo or Conway.

        JvG was the one who offered Coombes and SOC senior contracts. JvG was the one who decided not to play them in the Celtic Cup. JvG is the one who is signing Jed to play ahead of them in the Pro14. I can respects any f those decisions individually whether I agree with them or not but collectively they don't stack up in my opinion. I've also backed up that opinion with the actual figures of caps and contracts from our closest competitor.

        All the talk about going to South Africa in the first few games is in my humble opinion bullsh!t. We have the Dragons at home up first and then we go to the Kings. If the coaching team can't win those two games without our internationals then they haven't got a rashers no matter how much they are being paid. The Cheetahs just won the Currie Cup and are a serious side again this year. There is no shame in losing to them at altitude and it won't derail our season if we do. We can learn a huge amount from the younger players performance in that kind of game. Then we have a 2 week break and when we play the Ospreys at the end of October there is a 50/50 chance that Kleyn and Beirne will be available as its a week after the QF, even if they are not we should again be able to take on the Ospreys with a pack of (Cronin, Marshall, Archer, Billy, Wyscherly, Botha, JOD and TOD with Boomer, o"Byrne, Scott, DOS/SOC, Cloete/Coombes/JOS on the bench). When we play Cardiff a week later there is a 75% chance that Kleyn, Beirne will be available and when we play Ulster the week after that the RWC is over and we need to be integrating the internationals back in before the HEC pool stages.

        Whether it is Jed, Coombes, Wycherley or SOC that take to the pitch over the next few months I'll shout them on. I've nothing against individuals who are trying to make a living and become the best players that they can be wherever they come from. So, while I generally try and keep it polite, you can take your accusations of NIMBYism (however you think that might be relevant in this context) and shove it where the sun don't shine. If you can't back up your opinion with anything more substantial than "believe" I'll treat it like I treat Boris' opinion about the backstop (and he is the paid professional too remember).
        Its also worth noting that the other sides (excepting SA) will have diminished playing squads (due to RWC) during this period. So ideal time to give young players their opportunities.

        Comment


          Again, future predictions of team selection happening already.

          If JVG doesn't think the kids are ready then that's good enough for me. If JVG starts wycherly on all occasions till the big guns return that's good enough for me too


          Wait and see, then crib?
          I am the million man.

          Comment


            This is where Nucifora should be putting his foot down. He is the man who has to put the coaches on a leash because their careers and the development of players are 2 things that must be balanced.


            I'd say if JVG could sign 10 South Africans tomorrow he would. That's the impression I get from him. McFarland went into ulster, cleared out most of the non performing senior players and played the youngsters. Cullen is the same in Leinster, taking over from MOC who refused to play quality youngsters. I think JVG is a bit like MOC.

            Comment


              Lads I'd say if you're in UL 4 mornings a week watching all these young lads put Jean, Tadhg and Billy back on their holes I'd take what you're saying with a lot more credence

              Who here has that informed approximation of these young players? Who here can say Munster have some James Ryan-esque animal whose being overlooked? Ripping 20s tournaments apart for ireland?

              Our starting locks are a Leinster guy and a bloke born in SA, our coaches are all test level experienced and the thing nobody seems to suggest is the level of player in our academy is a million miles from test level right now and has been for a while given we need two add ins to pack the row


              Apart from Fineen belting the head off Sexton has ANY second row/back row kid looked international in waiting? Who was the last? Pete? Dave Foley?




              I am the million man.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                Again, future predictions of team selection happening already.

                If JVG doesn't think the kids are ready then that's good enough for me. If JVG starts wycherly on all occasions till the big guns return that's good enough for me too


                Wait and see, then crib?
                So if Jed doesn't play at all for two months but Munster Rugby pay him then its a good decision in your book?

                If Munster Rugby put 2 former Ireland u20 players through a 3 year academy programme and then decided at the end of it they should be offered senior contracts and JVG then decides that they are not good enough then something is rotten at the core of the system. As fans we should be willing to call that out.

                I don't know if they are good enough or not. I'm not claiming to be the expert of judging which individual is best. I'm pointing out the total inconsistency in the contracting decisions.

                Of course if he is being signed it is reasonable to assume it is with the intention of paying him. You simply don't have a leg to stand on other than "unicorns", "sunlit uplands" and "believe".

                Comment


                  Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                  So if Jed doesn't play at all for two months but Munster Rugby pay him then its a good decision in your book?

                  If Munster Rugby put 2 former Ireland u20 players through a 3 year academy programme and then decided at the end of it they should be offered senior contracts and JVG then decides that they are not good enough then something is rotten at the core of the system. As fans we should be willing to call that out.

                  I don't know if they are good enough or not. I'm not claiming to be the expert of judging which individual is best. I'm pointing out the total inconsistency in the contracting decisions.

                  Of course if he is being signed it is reasonable to assume it is with the intention of paying him. You simply don't have a leg to stand on other than "unicorns", "sunlit uplands" and "believe".
                  Listen I haven't gotten personal so calm yourself

                  Your opinion is as equal as mine, I have a beef with the questioning of EVERY decision that the union makes in relation to Munster that seems to beget complaints on here from some (not all, and not always you btw)

                  I personally believe what's being brought through the academy is not good enough and that's probably not an easy or nice thing to say but I won't take shots at Johann when he's gotten Carbery, larkham, Rowntree, a ****e load of contract extensions

                  The only reason I hold the opinion the academy produce isn't good enough is because whenever they are picked they don't seem to show enough to demand repicking, and, more importantly I trust the coaches to know whose good enough and who isn't.

                  The issue is quality locally. There are no James Ryan's, no Dan leavys, no max deegans or dorises are there? If so who and where are they?

                  Some kid looking good against the cheetahs won't matter a jot if he gets obliterated by Itoje and Kruis in a playoff because of injuries?
                  I am the million man.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                    Lads I'd say if you're in UL 4 mornings a week watching all these young lads put Jean, Tadhg and Billy back on their holes I'd take what you're saying with a lot more credence

                    Who here has that informed approximation of these young players? Who here can say Munster have some James Ryan-esque animal whose being overlooked? Ripping 20s tournaments apart for ireland?

                    Our starting locks are a Leinster guy and a bloke born in SA, our coaches are all test level experienced and the thing nobody seems to suggest is the level of player in our academy is a million miles from test level right now and has been for a while given we need two add ins to pack the row


                    Apart from Fineen belting the head off Sexton has ANY second row/back row kid looked international in waiting? Who was the last? Pete? Dave Foley?




                    If you don't like other people's opinions then maybe don't come to an internet discussion forum. You can view all of JVGs opinions on videos on the munsterrugby site if that is all the information about Munster that you seem to want. That's fair enough. There are other people who would like to share and discuss their opinions and nobody is forcing you to read them (unless you are tied-up in larry's shed with Mafi and Paul Warwick in which case put 2 blinky smilies in your next post).

                    Coombes has done perfectly well in every game he has played. JOS was at the same level as Dorris for the Irish u20 18 months ago. Hodnett was tearing up trees for the u20s on the way to a grand slam and some decent WC performances 6-8 months ago (though I'm not sure if he is still injured). I have no clue what their ceiling is (and frankly neither does JVG or any other coach because nobody has a crystal ball). It is reasonable to say that nobody will ever find out what their ceiling is if they don't get enough of a chance to play.

                    Part of JVG's job description is to make those players better. He is not living up to it in my opinion and it is not restricted to the second row/back row. Daly and Nash are also not getting gametime despite ROM retiring and Steven Fitz being released and Wootton being jettisoned for his defensive sins.. Bill Johnston (who was man of the match when James Ryan's u20 beat NZ) has left to go to Ulster. Its a systematic problem and it is going to hurt us because we can never aspire to buy in a team that can win the HEC.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                      If you don't like other people's opinions then maybe don't come to an internet discussion forum. You can view all of JVGs opinions on videos on the munsterrugby site if that is all the information about Munster that you seem to want. That's fair enough. There are other people who would like to share and discuss their opinions and nobody is forcing you to read them (unless you are tied-up in larry's shed with Mafi and Paul Warwick in which case put 2 blinky smilies in your next post).

                      Coombes has done perfectly well in every game he has played. JOS was at the same level as Dorris for the Irish u20 18 months ago. Hodnett was tearing up trees for the u20s on the way to a grand slam and some decent WC performances 6-8 months ago (though I'm not sure if he is still injured). I have no clue what their ceiling is (and frankly neither does JVG or any other coach because nobody has a crystal ball). It is reasonable to say that nobody will ever find out what their ceiling is if they don't get enough of a chance to play.

                      Part of JVG's job description is to make those players better. He is not living up to it in my opinion and it is not restricted to the second row/back row. Daly and Nash are also not getting gametime despite ROM retiring and Steven Fitz being released and Wootton being jettisoned for his defensive sins.. Bill Johnston (who was man of the match when James Ryan's u20 beat NZ) has left to go to Ulster. Its a systematic problem and it is going to hurt us because we can never aspire to buy in a team that can win the HEC.
                      It's an opinion forum, the rubbish you spew is no better or worse than my rubbush, or Larry's or chippys or whoever's

                      I can observe something and call it, others can object to it. Neither of these positions is right or wrong and neither is going to change what's happening

                      Your suggestion of Bill Johnson is a good one, but we have Carbery, Tyler and Hanrahan. He was 4th in a queue, still doesn't make him an international in waiting in my book, just makes him the guy who couldn't get ahead of JJ, Tyler or Ireland's next outhalf

                      If I could frame it like this: why is it always the coaches fault? Jed comes in and it's Johann gets the stick, why isn't it a question of where is the back garden guy better than Jed? Why are they not materialising?
                      I am the million man.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                        This is where Nucifora should be putting his foot down. He is the man who has to put the coaches on a leash because their careers and the development of players are 2 things that must be balanced.


                        I'd say if JVG could sign 10 South Africans tomorrow he would. That's the impression I get from him. McFarland went into ulster, cleared out most of the non performing senior players and played the youngsters. Cullen is the same in Leinster, taking over from MOC who refused to play quality youngsters. I think JVG is a bit like MOC.
                        Loughman Rhys Knox
                        Jean and Tadhg
                        CJ cloete Arno

                        ​​​​​​Alby Joey

                        / Tyler Farrell /
                        Hayley

                        Parker Sammy Wootton Nick McCarthy

                        17 off the top of my head who are brought in

                        Our squad is becoming more and more an amalgamation, is that Johanns fault or is it what is here to work with? I'm not complaining btw, I like seeing people move to Munster and build their lives (my own brother in law and my closest pal are NIQ)
                        I am the million man.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                          This is where Nucifora should be putting his foot down. He is the man who has to put the coaches on a leash because their careers and the development of players are 2 things that must be balanced.


                          I'd say if JVG could sign 10 South Africans tomorrow he would. That's the impression I get from him. McFarland went into ulster, cleared out most of the non performing senior players and played the youngsters. Cullen is the same in Leinster, taking over from MOC who refused to play quality youngsters. I think JVG is a bit like MOC.
                          All Nucifora wants is 4 winning provinces, Carbery here, Johnson in Belfast. His foot goes down when the provinces stop winning I'd have thought?
                          I am the million man.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                            It's an opinion forum, the rubbish you spew is no better or worse than my rubbush, or Larry's or chippys or whoever's

                            I can observe something and call it, others can object to it. Neither of these positions is right or wrong and neither is going to change what's happening

                            Your suggestion of Bill Johnson is a good one, but we have Carbery, Tyler and Hanrahan. He was 4th in a queue, still doesn't make him an international in waiting in my book, just makes him the guy who couldn't get ahead of JJ, Tyler or Ireland's next outhalf

                            If I could frame it like this: why is it always the coaches fault? Jed comes in and it's Johann gets the stick, why isn't it a question of where is the back garden guy better than Jed? Why are they not materialising?
                            This is a fairly hypocritical post. Especially in the context of your original 'Jesus but i find the 'i know better' crew wearying

                            Would you tell a professional how to do some part of his job? Solicitor or Consultant Doctor say?' post.

                            The implication here is fairly obvious. Using that logic, nobody should be able to submit any opinion unless it mirrors that of the professional coaches. So in actual fact there is a definitive right answer.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Mumhain View Post

                              This is a fairly hypocritical post. Especially in the context of your original 'Jesus but i find the 'i know better' crew wearying

                              Would you tell a professional how to do some part of his job? Solicitor or Consultant Doctor say?' post.

                              The implication here is fairly obvious. Using that logic, nobody should be able to submit any opinion unless it mirrors that of the professional coaches. So in actual fact there is a definitive right answer.
                              Sur I haven't a clue whose going to make the grade or not Mumhain, genuinely. My contention is that when Munster do something (Jed) they get pilloried and I don't subscribe to that because

                              A) I am not a professional coach
                              B) I am not watching the squad week in week out
                              C) I have a bit of trust in the IRFU and Munster at this stage to ensure we can stay competitive

                              I've no idea if the standard of academy graduate is excellent or ****e either, but the fact we have more than 15 imports of one ilk or another makes me wonder what's happening in the academy to have generated this situation. If that's the best and most effective way to keep Munster in the top 4 of league and cup, so be it, I don't proclaim to know
                              I am the million man.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                                Sur I haven't a clue whose going to make the grade or not Mumhain, genuinely. My contention is that when Munster do something (Jed) they get pilloried and I don't subscribe to that because

                                A) I am not a professional coach
                                B) I am not watching the squad week in week out
                                C) I have a bit of trust in the IRFU and Munster at this stage to ensure we can stay competitive

                                I've no idea if the standard of academy graduate is excellent or ****e either, but the fact we have more than 15 imports of one ilk or another makes me wonder what's happening in the academy to have generated this situation. If that's the best and most effective way to keep Munster in the top 4 of league and cup, so be it, I don't proclaim to know
                                I hope this post helps...I think people are talking at crossed purposes, and sliding the odd personal jibe in, which isn’t helping things at all.

                                Cowboy, I read your posts with interest, but it really did seem to me that what you were saying is, ‘they are the professionals, don’t question them’. As the thread has developed you are saying, quite reasonably I think, that there must be some reason why we s this m to need to bring players in rather than relying on our own.

                                i read AFHs post as saying there are some inconsistent judgements being made, not least that we seem to be hiring guys despite, apparently, having a queue of guys,
                                who have done very well at U20 and beyond, not getting game time, when there are opportunities to play them Celtic cup, early PRO14).

                                The bits of personal jibes aside, let’s nit even bother having the ho started it childishness, there really are two very legitimate views on the current situation, they can’t be good enough because the coaches aren’t selecting them, how will we know unless they get to play. Clearly seeing the guys in training gives the coaches the box seat in making the judgement (and makes their assessment more valid than ours), and it’s also their responsibility to do so (professionals paid to make the best decisions for Munster). But I don’t think that’s any reason to just close the debate on why these decisions are being made,
                                and pointing out what seem to be inconsistencies in the decisions made. This discussion is entirely different to the issues about whether IRFU should /should not be supporting Munster, and whose interests it is in that they do/don’t.

                                Comment

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