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    Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

    I'd have Goggin ahead of Arnold (though Farrell ahead of either) and I'd have Sweetnam ahead of Haley and Boomer ahead of Loughman. No need to list Keats - that would reduce the red a bit for you.

    Then I'd break the problem into 2 parts:
    1. Backwards looking:
    Why did we not get the best out of Paddy Butler (man among boys at u20 level) or Nagle or Dave Foley. Why could we not hold on to Mr Angry until Fineen displaced him and let Billy take the horse to France instead?

    Nothing we can do about any of that but we can learn from it to avoid as many of the same errors as possible.
    Butler is playing for Pau. It's not like he moved upwards after leaving. Nagle and Foley are hardly tearing up trees either. I haven't seen Foley in a Pau 23 since September/October. I think we did get the best out of them. U20s performance is no indication of how a player will progress in the senior ranks. Sometimes players just aren't good enough.
    And Ryan left for monetary reasons.
    Take off the red tinted glasses.

    Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post
    2. Forward/present looking:
    Why is Tyler being preferred to BJ and JJ? (doesn't make huge amount of sense to me based on the season's form) BJ not even in the euro squad though. If he doesn't develop now he will not be able to step up in future and then we'll scramble around for another NZ or SAFFER ex u20 star who didn't make the grade.

    Why is Fineen behind Billy for the 19 shirt? If he doesn't develop now then when the next head coach comes in they will look to sign another external player to replace Billy.

    Why is Nash getting zero gametime this year? It is not that he isn't up to it, we have seen that he is last year.

    Why is Botha being selected ahead of Gavin Coombes? Coombes has looked that part in the few chances he's been given this season, but why so limited?
    I'd suggest that you're blowing things out of proportion. Only a few of these players are going to play in the big games. It's about winning and they don't have the experience. They've all however gotten game time in the smaller P14 games and will all get more time over the next two months. When they get this experience, we'll see if they're good enough to make the step up.

    Comment


      I think both AfH and Wallyman have a point, but it's likely easier* for Lancaster and Plug to insert a Doris/Keenan etc into their side because they are just head and shoulders above every other squad in Ireland and the UK right now.

      *easier because they've 34 million players all of a scary standard, we dont enjoy such bounties currently.

      Tis all about winning, and off the top of my head a fairly young laden side went down to the cheetahs and ripped them a new arsehole so its not all doom and gloom. What I would love to see is young players breaking into the team on merit and holding onto the jersey on merit!

      EDIT: thinking further on that Cheetahs game, BillJo and Tyler were 10 & 12 and it was a clear indication to my eye of a wise older senior head helping an apprentice master his trade. I think of all the lads still up in the air, Blyendaal is the one man I hope we retain - I dont want another what if scenario like Chrissy Cullen was.
      Last edited by Cowboy; 9th-January-2019, 15:27.
      I am the million man.

      Comment


        Originally posted by POPEYE View Post
        Why not Ultan might not be playing his best at present but think he could get his mojo back and it would mean we could use Beirne as back row cover also.Hart is going I think I read somewhere so Alby would be great to have for World Cup year wth Duncan and Cronin as back ups ?
        Connacht announced today Ultan has signed until the end of 2020/1.

        Comment


          I wonder if Blynders will get a coaching role at some point?
          ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

          Originally Posted by mr chips
          AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

          Comment


            Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post
            I wonder if Blynders will get a coaching role at some point?
            Very likely, I’d have thought, but I’d hope it’s either elsewhere or instead of one of our other ‘academy’ of coaches with little experience elsewhere.

            Comment


              I agree with large chunks of most of the posts above, but I think we are asking for the impossible- or do not recognise what is needed to make it possible.

              This isn’t just the romantic ideal of an emigrant- there really is something very very special about a side so grounded in the local community that can compete (and win) against teams with eye watering capacity to spend. However, being ‘local’ isn’t enough, we want to be credible competitors for every competition we are in. Inevitably from time to time local talent must be supplemented with outstanding players from further a field- IF we want to win cups, or at least get losers medals. Where are how much we supplement depends on the amount and quality of the local talent.

              We can argue about the merits of individual players, wonder at why they haven’t developed more/faster, but there is only a point in doing so if we are serious about putting it right. There are threads elsewhere on the forum bemoaning the state of the club game, the inability of club sides to fulfill fixtures at underage level, the stockpiling of talent that doesn’t play regularly/meaningfully for the schools the players attend, and we’ve seen the demise of the B and I cup which gave competitive opportunities across the year. All of these, and doubtless many more issues affect what talent the Academy recruits and its ability to ensure that more of these recruits are so good that we do not need to recruit senior players in order to keep results at an acceptable level.

              Only a determined long term plan, properly resourced, and fully committed to by clubs, HE colleges and schools will really change the outcomes. If there is such a plan, it isn’t working as well as we would like- or at least not yet. If there isn’t, then it’s hardly a surprise that we aren’t producing starting international players across all/most positions. Even with a plan, committment to implementing it and the resources to do so, the delivery time is years- and probably a decade rather than life span of a senior coach.

              You can’t expect a coaching team that will be judged on results on the pitch to spend its time on developing talent that won’t affect first team performances- hell, we manage to be negative even when we are winning games that last year we lost!

              Comment


                Originally posted by Mr Snrub View Post

                oh you huer. What a good post.
                I like the cut of this guys jib.
                Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
                  This isn’t just the romantic ideal of an emigrant- there really is something very very special about a side so grounded in the local community that can compete (and win) against teams with eye watering capacity to spend. However, being ‘local’ isn’t enough, we want to be credible competitors for every competition we are in. Inevitably from time to time local talent must be supplemented with outstanding players from further a field- IF we want to win cups, or at least get losers medals. Where are how much we supplement depends on the amount and quality of the local talent.
                  I think you can make it simpler than that. No team anywhere in Europe, not Munster nor Leinster nor anyone, has competed at the top level of European rugby without outside talent. And outside talent is essential to creating and maintaining a strong team grounded in the local community. Rugby is not GAA - it's a global game and benefits from global ideas.

                  Comment


                    On giving game time to young players I do feel like there has been opportunities to give more minutes to young guys. Should we be loaning some of these guys out?

                    All that said I wouldn't be against making a move for a paddy Butler. While he is playing regularly for Pau there are new regulations around overseas players coming in and AFAIK his contract is up this summer.
                    Despite the fact he would not be first choice, I think there would be enough in it for both parties.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Wallyman View Post

                      Butler is playing for Pau. It's not like he moved upwards after leaving. Nagle and Foley are hardly tearing up trees either. I haven't seen Foley in a Pau 23 since September/October. I think we did get the best out of them. U20s performance is no indication of how a player will progress in the senior ranks. Sometimes players just aren't good enough.
                      And Ryan left for monetary reasons.
                      Take off the red tinted glasses.


                      I'd suggest that you're blowing things out of proportion. Only a few of these players are going to play in the big games. It's about winning and they don't have the experience. They've all however gotten game time in the smaller P14 games and will all get more time over the next two months. When they get this experience, we'll see if they're good enough to make the step up.
                      Yes, of course I'm blowing it slightly out of proportion - the inevitability of any internet "debate". So in that sense any individual point I made can be taken with a pinch of slat. If you look up at the other posts I made you'll see that I also acknowledge a glass half full alternative.

                      However it is the overall trend and the underlying reasons for that trend that concern me. You can say that Butler, Nagle, Foley of David Johnston hit their ceiling and were moved on. I can say that they weren't enabled to develop fully and Munster overall suffered as a result. Its a counterfactual so we can't prove either point to be correct. In reality the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

                      To further the point it would be good to analysis the difference in development for players where their seemed to be a clear plan and those for whom there wasn't. Nobody would have called Archer or Ryan international standard 4/5 years ago. Most of us were panicked by the idea that we wouldn't be able to replace BJ Botha with a NIQ - there were calls to bring back Mike Ross or bring in Marty Moore (the Leinster guy is always better remember!). But Fla and Axel seemed to have a clear plan in mind for the development of Ryan, they switched him across from LH and persisted. They also worked with Archer on his scrummaging issues and persisted. We now have 2 THP who can hold their own with any scrum in Europe and who put in decent shifts around the park. Same approach seems to have been taken with Brian Scott who has picked up an unfortunate injury and with Boomer also. I am happy to see either of those guys get manshamed in a couple of games if it is part of their longer term development.

                      The same approach has worked for Rory Scannell. When he first broke into the squad we had a problem at 10 and there were calls to play him there. Axel persisted with developing him as a 12 and giving him the gametime there. Maybe he has hit his ceiling now and Goggin will take over, maybe he will kick on and take the shirt back but we can see that we have benefited from a clear plan for his development; a position was picked and gametime was given. Contrast any of that with what happened with Paddy Butller or JOD of DOC2 who have been slotted in and out of wherever it best suited for an individual game.

                      With that in mind we can look at the next generation of players coming in and ask is there a clear plan. For Fineen, BJ, Shane Daly and Nash all of whom have the talent to make it to international standard I am not convinced that there is a clear plan. Same applies to to Gavin Coombes and Sean O'Connor who at a minimum have the talent to be part of be HEC winning 23 in the future. It is definitely too early to say for sure either way with any of these players and I'd be very happy to be proven wrong in 18 months. However the signing of guys like Arno Botha or a potential resigning of Tyler set off alarm bells for me that we aren't taking the right direction.

                      With regard to the more general point that we need to win - agree 100% but I would cavaet that with the view that this means we need to win trophies every few years and compete for them regularly. This does not mean we need to focus only on winning games in the short run but also to have a longer term plan for winning trophies. Pursuing that plan may mean taking risks with respect to winning individual matches. Playing Coombes last week instead of Botha would have been a risk for that match for sure (irrespective of how Botha actually played because he was more likely to have a stormer than the mare that he did) but in my opinion the risk of playing Coombes has serious long term benefits that we are failing to capture now. That is a worry to me.

                      having said all of that I can of course acknowledge that there is also ample evidence for the alternative viewpoint and we are working off a very small sample size of games where JvG has been in charge so far. We can have a better insight by the end of this season and even better one by this time next year. For me personally the jury is out and I wish him and the rest of the coaching team all the wisdom in the world in getting the balance right between winning individual matches and developing a long term winning squad with a majority of home developed players.

                      Comment


                        Rumours (I know, I know) that Biarritz are interested in signing Dave O’Callaghan
                        "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                        Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                        Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                          Yes, of course I'm blowing it slightly out of proportion - the inevitability of any internet "debate". So in that sense any individual point I made can be taken with a pinch of slat. If you look up at the other posts I made you'll see that I also acknowledge a glass half full alternative.

                          However it is the overall trend and the underlying reasons for that trend that concern me. You can say that Butler, Nagle, Foley of David Johnston hit their ceiling and were moved on. I can say that they weren't enabled to develop fully and Munster overall suffered as a result. Its a counterfactual so we can't prove either point to be correct. In reality the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

                          To further the point it would be good to analysis the difference in development for players where their seemed to be a clear plan and those for whom there wasn't. Nobody would have called Archer or Ryan international standard 4/5 years ago. Most of us were panicked by the idea that we wouldn't be able to replace BJ Botha with a NIQ - there were calls to bring back Mike Ross or bring in Marty Moore (the Leinster guy is always better remember!). But Fla and Axel seemed to have a clear plan in mind for the development of Ryan, they switched him across from LH and persisted. They also worked with Archer on his scrummaging issues and persisted. We now have 2 THP who can hold their own with any scrum in Europe and who put in decent shifts around the park. Same approach seems to have been taken with Brian Scott who has picked up an unfortunate injury and with Boomer also. I am happy to see either of those guys get manshamed in a couple of games if it is part of their longer term development.

                          The same approach has worked for Rory Scannell. When he first broke into the squad we had a problem at 10 and there were calls to play him there. Axel persisted with developing him as a 12 and giving him the gametime there. Maybe he has hit his ceiling now and Goggin will take over, maybe he will kick on and take the shirt back but we can see that we have benefited from a clear plan for his development; a position was picked and gametime was given. Contrast any of that with what happened with Paddy Butller or JOD of DOC2 who have been slotted in and out of wherever it best suited for an individual game.

                          With that in mind we can look at the next generation of players coming in and ask is there a clear plan. For Fineen, BJ, Shane Daly and Nash all of whom have the talent to make it to international standard I am not convinced that there is a clear plan. Same applies to to Gavin Coombes and Sean O'Connor who at a minimum have the talent to be part of be HEC winning 23 in the future. It is definitely too early to say for sure either way with any of these players and I'd be very happy to be proven wrong in 18 months. However the signing of guys like Arno Botha or a potential resigning of Tyler set off alarm bells for me that we aren't taking the right direction.

                          With regard to the more general point that we need to win - agree 100% but I would cavaet that with the view that this means we need to win trophies every few years and compete for them regularly. This does not mean we need to focus only on winning games in the short run but also to have a longer term plan for winning trophies. Pursuing that plan may mean taking risks with respect to winning individual matches. Playing Coombes last week instead of Botha would have been a risk for that match for sure (irrespective of how Botha actually played because he was more likely to have a stormer than the mare that he did) but in my opinion the risk of playing Coombes has serious long term benefits that we are failing to capture now. That is a worry to me.

                          having said all of that I can of course acknowledge that there is also ample evidence for the alternative viewpoint and we are working off a very small sample size of games where JvG has been in charge so far. We can have a better insight by the end of this season and even better one by this time next year. For me personally the jury is out and I wish him and the rest of the coaching team all the wisdom in the world in getting the balance right between winning individual matches and developing a long term winning squad with a majority of home developed players.
                          Not sure it’s right to say that Butler didn’t get opportunities or that he was moved on. He was playing pretty regularly, mostly at 7 having been deemed a bit small for 8, when he decided to leave. If he had stayed he was in line to be first choice or at least in the mix. I thought it was a shame that he made that call and didn’t really understand it at the time.

                          I’d welcome him back but not sure he’d make a huge difference to our strength in depth.

                          Comment


                            Johnson needs to move on imho. With Sexton's extension, Carbery is here for the longer haul. Tyler is now back fit, and while JJ divides opinion he started playing very well before injury and VG has clear faith in him.

                            Bill is at a crucial age and can't be hanging around playing AIL for much longer.
                            "There are probably more annoying things than being hectored about African development by a wealthy Irish rock star in a cowboy hat, but I can't think of one at the moment"

                            Paul Theroux

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                              I think you can make it simpler than that. No team anywhere in Europe, not Munster nor Leinster nor anyone, has competed at the top level of European rugby without outside talent. And outside talent is essential to creating and maintaining a strong team grounded in the local community. Rugby is not GAA - it's a global game and benefits from global ideas.
                              I think that's a strawman though. Nobody is suggesting that we should have a squad that is 100% Munster developed. At the other extreme I don't think anyone would be happy if their province was fielding a team that was 100% externally developed.

                              The issue being discussed is where is the balance. That issue is further complicated by the reality that after some length of time a player who has come in from outside can become a core part of the culture and helps drive the overall culture in a positive direction (CJ or Conway for us, Isa, Cronin, Fardy or Henshaw for your beloved blues). This complication makes it impossible to put an arbitrary number like 30% or 50% or 66% and say that is the level of external players in the team/23/squad that is too much.

                              My fear is that the rotation of head coaches at Munster over the past decade has lead to a series of short term signings of external talent that fills short term gaps but lacks the coherence of developing a long term squad with the right balance of long established home grown players, long established imports, up and coming home grown players and the cherry on top of the short term top-class player who gets you over the line of winning trophies (Brad Thorn, Rocky Elsom, Trevor Halstead, Rua Tipoki, BJ Botha etc.). Specifically what kicked this off is that I don't see where Botha or Tyler fit in that mix in terms of a Munster squad that can compete for HECs consistently in the next 4-5 years and provide more than a 3rd of the 2023 RWC squad. I'm also a bit dubious on Alby's role in that given that we have signed Nic McCarthy.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by busby View Post
                                Johnson needs to move on imho. With Sexton's extension, Carbery is here for the longer haul. Tyler is now back fit, and while JJ divides opinion he started playing very well before injury and VG has clear faith in him.

                                Bill is at a crucial age and can't be hanging around playing AIL for much longer.
                                He's not even getting AIL - Ben Healy has taken that spot from him at Garryowen and also for some of the A games. He really is FUBARed at both ends.

                                Comment

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