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    Originally posted by JN.Allezdax.com View Post
    Excepted if Wych is considered most of all as a lock

    PS: It's an answer to AfH and DK points of view...
    Yes, that would make it more understandable of course. But even still during the WC next year we will have Billy, SOC, Kleyn, JOD, JOS, TOD, Wych. Coombes available who can all mix and match 4/5/6/8 and then we have Cloete, Oliver and Daly who can play 7 if TOD has to play 6. That is 8 quality players looking for 6 spots in the 23 and then two Lions at their peak to come back into the squad for Europe. This is in a league where all the other teams will also be hit badly with WC call ups.

    Overall I think that signing in players from outside needs to be fairly carefully considered not just with respect to the individual (which i think Munster have gotten right far more often than wrong and seem to have gotten even better at in recent years) but also to the overall balance of the squad. Too many players from outside the province and the identity and buy-in can slip both from players and supporters and that needs to be avoided.

    We could put out the following side from the current squad:

    Loughman, Marshall, Parker, Kleyn, Beirne, Botha, Cloete, Stander, Alby, Joey, Wootton, Arnold, Farrell, Conway, Haley: Clarke, Knox, ?, ?, Oliver, Hart, Tyler, Taute

    No place for James McCarthy or Keatley

    Not a single one of them played underage rugby in Munster and only a handful (Wootton, Parker, Oliver) ever played senior club rugby in Munster. 6/7 of the above side are nailed on starters in a HEC tomorrow morning if fit. 4/5 more are highly probable for a spot in the 23. That is a dangerous trend.

    Leinster got rid of MOC fairly quickly when he wasn't giving young players enough of a chance and look where they are now. We have talent in the system - we need to start taking a better approach to developing it.

    Comment


      Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

      Yes, that would make it more understandable of course. But even still during the WC next year we will have Billy, SOC, Kleyn, JOD, JOS, TOD, Wych. Coombes available who can all mix and match 4/5/6/8 and then we have Cloete, Oliver and Daly who can play 7 if TOD has to play 6. That is 8 quality players looking for 6 spots in the 23 and then two Lions at their peak to come back into the squad for Europe. This is in a league where all the other teams will also be hit badly with WC call ups.

      Overall I think that signing in players from outside needs to be fairly carefully considered not just with respect to the individual (which i think Munster have gotten right far more often than wrong and seem to have gotten even better at in recent years) but also to the overall balance of the squad. Too many players from outside the province and the identity and buy-in can slip both from players and supporters and that needs to be avoided.

      We could put out the following side from the current squad:

      Loughman, Marshall, Parker, Kleyn, Beirne, Botha, Cloete, Stander, Alby, Joey, Wootton, Arnold, Farrell, Conway, Haley: Clarke, Knox, ?, ?, Oliver, Hart, Tyler, Taute

      No place for James McCarthy or Keatley

      Not a single one of them played underage rugby in Munster and only a handful (Wootton, Parker, Oliver) ever played senior club rugby in Munster. 6/7 of the above side are nailed on starters in a HEC tomorrow morning if fit. 4/5 more are highly probable for a spot in the 23. That is a dangerous trend.

      Leinster got rid of MOC fairly quickly when he wasn't giving young players enough of a chance and look where they are now. We have talent in the system - we need to start taking a better approach to developing it.
      I'd wonder are you over egging this particular point? There is a reason why Munster have gone into the market for players and I believe it's because there isn't enough top end talent in the system as it is.

      No doubt we have some great young players, but you could count on one hand the fellas who are becoming sustained starters recently.

      The academy is not producing enough/of a high enough quality I believe


      As an aside, if as much energy was placed into giving out about the academy as there was about Munster bringing in the likes of Arno/Cloete/Kleyn/McCarthy/Loughman etc we might have more debate around WHY this setup is not creating international level players anymore.
      I am the million man.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

        I'd wonder are you over egging this particular point? There is a reason why Munster have gone into the market for players and I believe it's because there isn't enough top end talent in the system as it is.

        No doubt we have some great young players, but you could count on one hand the fellas who are becoming sustained starters recently.

        The academy is not producing enough/of a high enough quality I believe


        As an aside, if as much energy was placed into giving out about the academy as there was about Munster bringing in the likes of Arno/Cloete/Kleyn/McCarthy/Loughman etc we might have more debate around WHY this setup is not creating international level players anymore.
        I think the quality is there in the academy. You can't become an international level player if you're not getting game time at provincial level.
        forti et fideli nihil difficile

        Comment


          Originally posted by dropkick View Post
          Yes Alby and a quality second row would be my preferred signings.

          I also think the squad needs trimming. Hart, Williams, Sherry, DOC2, ROM, Fitzgerald, Keatley, Taute, Alby and Bleyendaal are all currently unsigned I believe. I'd like to see Alby stay and think the rest are not needed with all the young talent coming through.
          From that list, several have had bad or extremely bad luck with injury. I wouldn't deem them all surplus to requirements though. While Mathewson is clearly the standout of those three scrumhalves, there's nothing at this stage to indicate we'll be allowed to keep him for next season, so for 2019-20 we're more likely looking at Murray, Cronin, McCarthy and at least one other from Williams, Hart and Stafford. I say "at least" because with Murray set to be unavailable for so much of the season, our default options are more limited and could be severely restricted in the event of injury. Williams is probably approaching the end of his career alright, but for me Stafford and Hart are still almost an unknown quantity at this stage, the latter due to prolonged injury absences. Not so sure that two of those three will be let go for next season.*

          It does seem that Taute will be moving on, assuming Farrell doesn't end up having the same sort of repeat injury nightmares as Sherry/Bleyendaal etc. However Tyler is one I think we should keep - he's still a squad regular, Carbery will be joining Murray in camp Joe and with Keatley confirmed as leaving, we'll need the three options of himself, JJ and Bill Johnston for FH.

          Sherry has seen very little game time in spite of Marshall's injury and will be 32 at the start of the season. He probably doesn't have much more than a season left in him and Scannell is another who'll be away with the national side, so I could see him being kept on a 6 month/one year contract as back-up to Marshall and KOB. If we were still looking at having a fourth hooker on the books after that, being hard-nosed about it I'd be more inclined to see if Duncan Casey was interested in coming back home.

          Dave O'Callaghan has been similarly blighted with injury and while he's still only 28/29, we're very well stocked in the back five now, so assuming he recovers to match fitness this time I think it'll be hard for him to break back in. Even with POM, CJ and Beirne away, we'd still have Kleyn, O'Shea, Holland/Wycherley and O'Connor for the second row, with Holland/Wycherley, Coombes and Botha for 6/8.

          Not sure what the future holds for Fitzgerald - as a young fella, he's looked capable whenever I've seen him play but I haven't seen enough to predict whether he's the next Keith Earls (default first choice for the national side) or the next Denis Hurley (a good squad player). Really though he'd need to be the former, since at 15 we're only likely to lose Conway to camp Joe.

          ROM was our top try-scorer a couple of seasons ago but is another who hasn't been able to fight his way back into the 23 after a long-term injury - with Wootton being one of those keeping him out despite being IMO a weaker defender. We're fairly stacked in terms of wingers so something will have to give there, but it looks like JVG is going with youth where there's a coin-toss situation.

          Least likely to stay on IMO - Keatley, DOC2, Taute, one of Williams/Hart*, ROM.
          Short-term contract - Sherry
          More likely to stay for at least 2019-20 - Bleyendaal, Stafford*
          Possible loan-deal extension for Fitzgerald.

          *everything's different if we do pull a contract extension for Alby out of the bag.
          Tis but a scratch.

          Comment


            I think that a few years ago the academy had a lean spell. The switching around of styles and head coaches then didn't help with the transition of players out of the academy but in the past 4 years or so this has changed in my view. I would credit Axel largely for that.

            Players who have some out of the academy in the last 4 years into the senior squad: Rory Scannell, Scott, Sweetnam, Wootton, JOD, Goggin, S Fitz, D Johnston, B Johnston, Boomer, G Coombes, Nash, Daly, Oliver, F Wych, SOC (italics for imports into the academy from outside Munster underage system). Underlined - players who have been moved on after being in senior squad.

            Players who have come out of the academy in the last 4 years and are on pro contract elsewhere: Rory Burke, Madigan, Ryan Foley, Geroid Lyons, Steve McMahon, JP Phelan, Conor Fitz (Greg O'Shea knocking around the 7s and may pick up contract there)

            (Would seem to me from this that we are good at getting reasonable talent into the academy (i.e. the majority of input is of pro rugby standard) and then only offering contracts to the ones who can make it)

            Players still in the academy that are almost certain to progress to Munster senior squad baring serious injury: S French, Casey, Jack O'Sullivan + others who may turn out to be gems or may be moved on because they don't step up.

            It is too early to judge Van Graan on how good he is at bringing through this talent. There is the glass half full argument (he has contracted BJ for 2 more years, he has moved Nash onto the senior panel early, he has given Wych and Goggin a shot in big games, he has played Coombes X 2 and Daly while they are still in academy + he has contracted a guy from the club game N Cronin). There is also a glass half empty argument (he has brought in Alby, Haley doesn't look far ahead of D Johnston and if he does its because Sale gave Haley gametime when he was young, he has contracted Botha which will restrict playing time for Coombes, JOD and JOS). I'm happy to give the coaching team time but I'll call out the negative trends when I see them and I hope that the decision makers watch those trends also and act before the problem gets too big.

            Comment


              I, too, believe that if we hadn't signed significant numbers of players in then we wouldn't even be competitive in recent times.

              The last six internationals produced were Sweetnam, Scannells, Rory and Niall, Jack O'Donoghue, John Ryan and Dave Foley who's no longer with us. That stretches back to 2014! Billy Holland was also capped in that span but that was more of a lifetime achievement award than the beginning of an international career.

              It's quite worrying when you look at it in those terms.

              By rough count, Connacht and Ulster have each had four academy graduates capped in the same time frame.

              Comment


                Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post
                I think that a few years ago the academy had a lean spell. The switching around of styles and head coaches then didn't help with the transition of players out of the academy but in the past 4 years or so this has changed in my view. I would credit Axel largely for that.

                Players who have some out of the academy in the last 4 years into the senior squad: Rory Scannell, Scott, Sweetnam, Wootton, JOD, Goggin, S Fitz, D Johnston, B Johnston, Boomer, G Coombes, Nash, Daly, Oliver, F Wych, SOC (italics for imports into the academy from outside Munster underage system). Underlined - players who have been moved on after being in senior squad.

                Players who have come out of the academy in the last 4 years and are on pro contract elsewhere: Rory Burke, Madigan, Ryan Foley, Geroid Lyons, Steve McMahon, JP Phelan, Conor Fitz (Greg O'Shea knocking around the 7s and may pick up contract there)

                (Would seem to me from this that we are good at getting reasonable talent into the academy (i.e. the majority of input is of pro rugby standard) and then only offering contracts to the ones who can make it)

                Players still in the academy that are almost certain to progress to Munster senior squad baring serious injury: S French, Casey, Jack O'Sullivan + others who may turn out to be gems or may be moved on because they don't step up.

                It is too early to judge Van Graan on how good he is at bringing through this talent. There is the glass half full argument (he has contracted BJ for 2 more years, he has moved Nash onto the senior panel early, he has given Wych and Goggin a shot in big games, he has played Coombes X 2 and Daly while they are still in academy + he has contracted a guy from the club game N Cronin). There is also a glass half empty argument (he has brought in Alby, Haley doesn't look far ahead of D Johnston and if he does its because Sale gave Haley gametime when he was young, he has contracted Botha which will restrict playing time for Coombes, JOD and JOS). I'm happy to give the coaching team time but I'll call out the negative trends when I see them and I hope that the decision makers watch those trends also and act before the problem gets too big.

                Good post AFH, the biggest pebble in my shoe is that of the 13 or so guys you've named and also add in Killer and Niall Scannell theres 15 guys, and I can't see any of them holding down an international jersey for any sustained period (Hopefully Niall Scannell can). Its plain as day we are seeing the middle of the most productive time in Irish rugby ever, but if Munster want to win trophies they need international level players as a standard.

                1. You've to be good to make the academy
                2. You've to be better to make the senior Munster squad (as a muppet)
                3. You've to be best to hold down a place in the matchday 23
                4. You've to be exceptional to make Carton House

                We are reaching the first stage no problem but massively underperforming at stages 3 to 4 I believe.
                Rory Scannell is likely the most advanced guy in this whole operation, Sweetnam has been unlucky with injury but is now well behind Haley - Conway - Earls.
                14 months between BillJo and Carbery - big difference in achievement so far (for various reasons)


                Munster NEED to raise the standard of home grown produce, higher than whats being handed over right now.
                I am the million man.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by mickiemcfist View Post

                  You waited 13 months to reply, and that was the best you could come up with?
                  Point being: Rain jacket muppets on here think a player now good enough for the Euro champs was not good enough for us last summer. Get real

                  Ill be back when he gets his first cap

                  In meantime, get yourself a new rain jacket and maybe a little munster flag

                  Im out
                  Last edited by SlurpySlurps; 9th-January-2019, 15:11.

                  Comment


                    Another way of looking at this, who have been our top operators for the last 2 years or so?

                    Killer Rhys Ryan
                    Kleyn Tadhg
                    Pete Cloete CJ

                    Murr Carbomb/Keats
                    Earlsy Scannell Arnold Conway
                    Zeebs/Haley

                    Cronin/Loughman Scans Archie
                    Billy/Fineen Arno
                    Alby Tyler

                    Sweetnam


                    Why in phucks name is the local system not producing fellas to take these 14 guys on toe to toe? Lets just pick one area - lock - whats Darren O'Shea not achieving to take over from Kleyn or Tadhg and why is this the case?
                    Our top end team has more lads originating from outside the system than within. I'm fecking delighted we have Alby Carbery Arno etc, but i'm just as worried that the internal system is not up to snuff to even compete with these guys and thats why they are called upon to join us. This is the biggest elephant in the room. I know the imports buy into the club and community and am proud we have something so special and tangible, but the local crew of lads need to pull their socks up - big time.


                    Ruairi O'Connor/Cummiskey have something for WNR now as well dang nabbit
                    I am the million man.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Cowboy View Post


                      Good post AFH, the biggest pebble in my shoe is that of the 13 or so guys you've named and also add in Killer and Niall Scannell theres 15 guys, and I can't see any of them holding down an international jersey for any sustained period (Hopefully Niall Scannell can). Its plain as day we are seeing the middle of the most productive time in Irish rugby ever, but if Munster want to win trophies they need international level players as a standard.

                      1. You've to be good to make the academy
                      2. You've to be better to make the senior Munster squad (as a muppet)
                      3. You've to be best to hold down a place in the matchday 23
                      4. You've to be exceptional to make Carton House

                      We are reaching the first stage no problem but massively underperforming at stages 3 to 4 I believe.
                      Rory Scannell is likely the most advanced guy in this whole operation, Sweetnam has been unlucky with injury but is now well behind Haley - Conway - Earls.
                      14 months between BillJo and Carbery - big difference in achievement so far (for various reasons)


                      Munster NEED to raise the standard of home grown produce, higher than whats being handed over right now.
                      International standard yes - regular internationals is a tough call given the quality in the country as a whole. I think we can win trophies with 6/7 regular international starters if the other 10/12 regular players are international standard but not getting regular caps because the Leinster/Ulster/Connacht/project guy ahead of them is better.

                      Right now we have 3 Munster developed regulars (POM, Murray and Earls) plus one project (CJ) and 7/8 more who are at international standard (Killer, N Scans, Ryan, JOD, Beirne, Joey, Farrell, Conway) but have less caps than a Scot or Taff of equal ability would. We also have 2 Munster developed international standard players in Racing and 2 more HEC standard players in Pau.

                      Why is Carberry so far head of BJ? Injury played a role for sure, but the biggest thing was that Leo played him while we were persisting with Keats and trying to get a permacrocked kiwi qualified for Ireland. Why is Larmour so far ahead of Nash? Its not their ability as 19 year olds where they were rated equally. It is not the academy system as both were deemed to good for the academy in their first years. It is gametime. Larmour was playing internationals in November while Nash was playing for Young Munster.

                      This is repeated through-out the squads. Ross Moloney v Wycherley, Deegan/Dorris v Coombes, Keenan v L Coombes etc etc.

                      Are these guys getting gametime because they are better or are they getting better because they are getting gametime? Neither of us know the answer to that 100% but I lean towards the latter and I'm concerned that in 4/5 years we'll be asking ourselves why didn't Sean French or Calvin Nash or Bill Johnston make it to the highest level.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                        International standard yes - regular internationals is a tough call given the quality in the country as a whole. I think we can win trophies with 6/7 regular international starters if the other 10/12 regular players are international standard but not getting regular caps because the Leinster/Ulster/Connacht/project guy ahead of them is better.

                        Right now we have 3 Munster developed regulars (POM, Murray and Earls) plus one project (CJ) and 7/8 more who are at international standard (Killer, N Scans, Ryan, JOD, Beirne, Joey, Farrell, Conway) but have less caps than a Scot or Taff of equal ability would. We also have 2 Munster developed international standard players in Racing and 2 more HEC standard players in Pau.

                        Why is Carberry so far head of BJ? Injury played a role for sure, but the biggest thing was that Leo played him while we were persisting with Keats and trying to get a permacrocked kiwi qualified for Ireland. Why is Larmour so far ahead of Nash? Its not their ability as 19 year olds where they were rated equally. It is not the academy system as both were deemed to good for the academy in their first years. It is gametime. Larmour was playing internationals in November while Nash was playing for Young Munster.

                        This is repeated through-out the squads. Ross Moloney v Wycherley, Deegan/Dorris v Coombes, Keenan v L Coombes etc etc.

                        Are these guys getting gametime because they are better or are they getting better because they are getting gametime? Neither of us know the answer to that 100% but I lean towards the latter and I'm concerned that in 4/5 years we'll be asking ourselves why didn't Sean French or Calvin Nash or Bill Johnston make it to the highest level.
                        oh you huer. What a good post.

                        Comment


                          Going through your 14 from front row to fullback ...
                          Liam O'Connor - I expect him to supplant Loughman and compete with Cronin//Killer.
                          We let Duncan Casey go - never understood that decision as to my mind he was the equal of any of our existing hookers. Maybe he wanted to move on anyway, but he definitely counts for me as one that got away and I hope we see him back here.
                          I have high hopes for Seán O'Connor. I agree with you on O'Shea, he doesn't seem to have the dog of Wycherley/Coombes, yet.
                          Gavin Coombes looks the business
                          Ditto Johnston. Could supplant both JJ and Tyler. Johnny Holland should have been here too, he had what it took.
                          Only seen Daly play once or twice - he seems highly rated so I'm mentioning his name, but others are better placed to comment.
                          Fitzgerald? Plus it's not like we hadn't produced Zebo.

                          Too early to tell with Tynan/MacCarthy/Coombes L and others in their second or third years of the academy.
                          Tis but a scratch.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                            International standard yes - regular internationals is a tough call given the quality in the country as a whole. I think we can win trophies with 6/7 regular international starters if the other 10/12 regular players are international standard but not getting regular caps because the Leinster/Ulster/Connacht/project guy ahead of them is better.

                            Right now we have 3 Munster developed regulars (POM, Murray and Earls) plus one project (CJ) and 7/8 more who are at international standard (Killer, N Scans, Ryan, JOD, Beirne, Joey, Farrell, Conway) but have less caps than a Scot or Taff of equal ability would. We also have 2 Munster developed international standard players in Racing and 2 more HEC standard players in Pau.

                            Why is Carberry so far head of BJ? Injury played a role for sure, but the biggest thing was that Leo played him while we were persisting with Keats and trying to get a permacrocked kiwi qualified for Ireland. Why is Larmour so far ahead of Nash? Its not their ability as 19 year olds where they were rated equally. It is not the academy system as both were deemed to good for the academy in their first years. It is gametime. Larmour was playing internationals in November while Nash was playing for Young Munster.

                            This is repeated through-out the squads. Ross Moloney v Wycherley, Deegan/Dorris v Coombes, Keenan v L Coombes etc etc.

                            Are these guys getting gametime because they are better or are they getting better because they are getting gametime? Neither of us know the answer to that 100% but I lean towards the latter and I'm concerned that in 4/5 years we'll be asking ourselves why didn't Sean French or Calvin Nash or Bill Johnston make it to the highest level.
                             
                            forti et fideli nihil difficile

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                              Another way of looking at this, who have been our top operators for the last 2 years or so?

                              Killer Rhys Ryan
                              Kleyn Tadhg
                              Pete Cloete CJ

                              Murr Carbomb/Keats
                              Earlsy Scannell Arnold Conway
                              Zeebs/Haley

                              Cronin/Loughman Scans Archie
                              Billy/Fineen Arno
                              Alby Tyler

                              Sweetnam


                              Why in phucks name is the local system not producing fellas to take these 14 guys on toe to toe? Lets just pick one area - lock - whats Darren O'Shea not achieving to take over from Kleyn or Tadhg and why is this the case?
                              Our top end team has more lads originating from outside the system than within. I'm fecking delighted we have Alby Carbery Arno etc, but i'm just as worried that the internal system is not up to snuff to even compete with these guys and thats why they are called upon to join us. This is the biggest elephant in the room. I know the imports buy into the club and community and am proud we have something so special and tangible, but the local crew of lads need to pull their socks up - big time.


                              Ruairi O'Connor/Cummiskey have something for WNR now as well dang nabbit
                              I'd have Goggin ahead of Arnold (though Farrell ahead of either) and I'd have Sweetnam ahead of Haley and Boomer ahead of Loughman. No need to list Keats - that would reduce the red a bit for you.

                              Then I'd break the problem into 2 parts:
                              1. Backwards looking:
                              Why did we not get the best out of Paddy Butler (man among boys at u20 level) or Nagle or Dave Foley. Why could we not hold on to Mr Angry until Fineen displaced him and let Billy take the horse to France instead?

                              Nothing we can do about any of that but we can learn from it to avoid as many of the same errors as possible.

                              2. Forward/present looking:
                              Why is Tyler being preferred to BJ and JJ? (doesn't make huge amount of sense to me based on the season's form) BJ not even in the euro squad though. If he doesn't develop now he will not be able to step up in future and then we'll scramble around for another NZ or SAFFER ex u20 star who didn't make the grade.

                              Why is Fineen behind Billy for the 19 shirt? If he doesn't develop now then when the next head coach comes in they will look to sign another external player to replace Billy.

                              Why is Nash getting zero gametime this year? It is not that he isn't up to it, we have seen that he is last year.

                              Why is Botha being selected ahead of Gavin Coombes? Coombes has looked that part in the few chances he's been given this season, but why so limited?

                              Comment


                                Re Duncan Casey. I'm pretty sure he asked to leave. I like him, but I honestly don't think he's as good as Scannell or Marshall. He's also older than our other hookers at 28 (KOB is 27 and Scannell and Marshall are 26). I don't think we'll be seeing him back any time soon and we don't miss him when we already have the other 3.

                                Comment

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