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    Originally posted by deltared View Post
    If you look again at the examples i quoted, you'll see what side of the fence I'm on! I don't come from a line of gargantuans but i knew how to put a bigger man down and make sure he was slower in getting up than i was.
    Exactly. Damien MacKenzie is 1.75m and 81kg, and he's a tough little bugger who'll empty you if you give him the chance.
    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

    Comment


      Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post
      The statement that Poland is being "left go" is a bit of a stretch. As I understand it he has never been contracted. He was offered an academy place some years ago and turned it down (my understanding, open to correction). Afterwards he has been given a chance in a few match squads and has trained with the senior squad.

      I don't think that the choice for the management is between Casey (who will proceed to year 2 of the academy) and Poland but rather between Cronin and Poland. It may be that Poland gets another chance once Duncan and Hart are out of contract next year. However if Poland wants to be a pro rugby player he may have to move and try to make a go of it.
      Now, that would be somewhat better. But, again, it shows neatly how education choices and the need of Munster to get players as good as Poland coming through should be made to work together rather than against each other. We have to have a better way of doing this, because we need every player we can and can't lose the likes of Poland.
      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
        Now, that would be somewhat better. But, again, it shows neatly how education choices and the need of Munster to get players as good as Poland coming through should be made to work together rather than against each other. We have to have a better way of doing this, because we need every player we can and can't lose the likes of Poland.
        Do you know what he is studying? I agree that education should be important but I would think that in the vast majority of fields graduate employers would be happier to bring in a guy with a UL degree and 2/3 years of rugby academy training (shows character, diversity of experience etc.) then a guy who has just a degree from AN OTHER third level institution (in this case UCC). I know that this does not hold for every single area and there are specific course where CIT or UCC would be the only realistic option but that should be relatively rare in my opinion.

        I work internationally and nobody really gives a fup which university my bachelors degree came from. I understand that you have an emotional attachment and respect for UCC and I don't disrespect that but ultimately the academy is about producing pro players. Having them in as much contact as possible with pro players and pro coaches is the best for them from a rugby development perspective and nobody can offer that in 2 (or more) locations.

        In another post above you reference Cloete from a size perspective but the other thing about him is that he traveled extensively to make it. He started on the Eastern Cape then headed up to Natal, then to the Western Cape then he went off to Sri Lanka, back to Capetown then back to the Eastern Cape with the Kings back to the coast again for a Currie Cup with the Pumas before coming to Munster. I think that smacks of dedication to make it as a pro so I'd have big question marks over somebody who thinks the N20 is a barrier too far.

        Comment


          The sooner the N20 is done away with the better. It's disappointing to hear Poland is not continuing but the Pro game is too insecure and if someone has a particular course in a particular college they want to complete fair dues to them and their decision should be respected. There's nothing stopping either himself or Paul Kiernan coming through later. If anything Johnny Hollands experience serves as a warning to all. Cronin is getting his chance at 25!!

          In fairness, the last thing this site needs is for another thread to turn into another Cork-Limerick mudsling

          Comment


            Originally posted by Rebel Yell View Post
            The sooner the N20 is done away with the better. It's disappointing to hear Poland is not continuing but the Pro game is too insecure and if someone has a particular course in a particular college they want to complete fair dues to them and their decision should be respected. There's nothing stopping either himself or Paul Kiernan coming through later. If anything Johnny Hollands experience serves as a warning to all. Cronin is getting his chance at 25!!

            In fairness, the last thing this site needs is for another thread to turn into another Cork-Limerick mudsling
            To be fair i think you have slightly misunderstood Polands situation with your well intended post.

            Poland is currently on a short term training contract and travelling up and down to Limerick to train. He is finished in UCC this summer (i think) and the academy thing was a good while ago. He was hoping to earn another contract for next season but munster decided to go another direction. Nothing to do with his college course or anything just a rugby decision really.

            There are currently lots of guys travelling daily up from Cork while keeping part time jobs/college etc. going at the same time with no issues.

            Comment


              Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post
              Do you know what he is studying? I agree that education should be important but I would think that in the vast majority of fields graduate employers would be happier to bring in a guy with a UL degree and 2/3 years of rugby academy training (shows character, diversity of experience etc.) then a guy who has just a degree from AN OTHER third level institution (in this case UCC). I know that this does not hold for every single area and there are specific course where CIT or UCC would be the only realistic option but that should be relatively rare in my opinion.

              I work internationally and nobody really gives a fup which university my bachelors degree came from. I understand that you have an emotional attachment and respect for UCC and I don't disrespect that but ultimately the academy is about producing pro players. Having them in as much contact as possible with pro players and pro coaches is the best for them from a rugby development perspective and nobody can offer that in 2 (or more) locations.

              In another post above you reference Cloete from a size perspective but the other thing about him is that he traveled extensively to make it. He started on the Eastern Cape then headed up to Natal, then to the Western Cape then he went off to Sri Lanka, back to Capetown then back to the Eastern Cape with the Kings back to the coast again for a Currie Cup with the Pumas before coming to Munster. I think that smacks of dedication to make it as a pro so I'd have big question marks over somebody who thinks the N20 is a barrier too far.
              On the degree thing - in some cases, you can't do the same degree, and they're not as uncommon as you think. In others, it's more complicated. In certain specific specialisations, UL might even have an advantage - Jack Anderson's link in sports law would count, and I don't really rate the guy in UCC - but in others would count against. It's not a simple, "Oh, it's the same", because it's not. We do not have enough players coming through that we can waste any, or force any to choose, because even with the natural wastage expected, we will lose out more than we can afford. Pro rugby simply isn't the be-all and end-all, and we need realise that if we glibly assume that people will always choose Munster just because, then we are making a bet we might well not win. Cian Bohane, for example, happily walked away as a pro, even when there was a contract on offer, and Christ knows we could probably do with another midfielder in cracking form right now. We do not have the luxury of numbers that would permit us to force kids to make that choice, so we'd be wiser not to make them.

              You also can't map a SA experience across, because there is a massive cultural difference in SA. In SA, in many areas, it's normal to travel to school to board. There simply isn't an option but to, because the distances are so vast, so they start from so early an age that it's inherent. However, even there, there's no doubt that, for example, WP will do their best to work with people on education (helped somewhat by the fact that WP are based just next to UCT, but Maties are much the stronger in rugby terms). Interestingly, from his comments, it was the university made Jean Kleyn choose between WP and US; if he'd just been in Maties, it'd all have been fine.

              And, bluntly: a rugby academy doesn't show anything. The players association make it very clear that players need to keep upskilling all the time because employers aren't going to fall over in awe at having been a pro, never mind been in an academy. Again: we can't ask kids to make that choice and think it'll work out for us, and we don't have enough that we can afford to lose any.
              Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

              Comment


                Originally posted by wellboy View Post
                To be fair i think you have slightly misunderstood Polands situation with your well intended post.

                Poland is currently on a short term training contract and travelling up and down to Limerick to train. He is finished in UCC this summer (i think) and the academy thing was a good while ago. He was hoping to earn another contract for next season but munster decided to go another direction. Nothing to do with his college course or anything just a rugby decision really.

                There are currently lots of guys travelling daily up from Cork while keeping part time jobs/college etc. going at the same time with no issues.

                Well, fup. Back to full-on WTF it is, then. That's just plain daft.
                Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by wellboy View Post
                  To be fair i think you have slightly misunderstood Polands situation with your well intended post.

                  Poland is currently on a short term training contract and travelling up and down to Limerick to train. He is finished in UCC this summer (i think) and the academy thing was a good while ago. He was hoping to earn another contract for next season but munster decided to go another direction. Nothing to do with his college course or anything just a rugby decision really.

                  There are currently lots of guys travelling daily up from Cork while keeping part time jobs/college etc. going at the same time with no issues.


                  Surely not every day wellboy? Presumed like once or twice a week..
                  forti et fideli nihil difficile

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                    We hardly signed him for the craic.
                    I think we signed him to push cars: https://twitter.com/Munsterrugby/status/984775249685303296

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                      Well, fup. Back to full-on WTF it is, then. That's just plain daft.
                      Murray, Williams and Hart are all on full-time contracts. We can argue till the cows come home about whether the latter two should be but that is irrelevant. They are.

                      Casey and Stafford both accepted places in the academy last year. Casey has been injured for the whole year and it would be cruel and fairly stupid to cut him on that basis as he is juts about to return from injury. Stafford has done well.

                      Therefore we have 5 scrum halves under contract for next year already. In that context I find it almost more surprising that they have contracted Cronin than that the haven't contracted Poland. I don't see much value in having a player on contract earning a pittance, driving up and down from Cork and playing 1 or 2 games a year for 2 seasons. As said above if Poland wants to be a pro rugby player he'll need to start sending his highlight reel around. If he doesn't want to be a pro rugby player then I won't hold that against him and wish him the best of luck in helping UCC get to 1A next year.

                      Comment


                        Anyone know the situation with Dries Swanepoel? Can he play pro 14 or is it just European rugby?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post
                          Anyone know the situation with Dries Swanepoel? Can he play pro 14 or is it just European rugby?
                          According to earlier posts on this thread he's not qualified play Pro 14 or European Rugby for us this season.
                          Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                          Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                          Comment


                            Great for an oul singsong though!
                            When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                              On the degree thing - in some cases, you can't do the same degree, and they're not as uncommon as you think. In others, it's more complicated. In certain specific specialisations, UL might even have an advantage - Jack Anderson's link in sports law would count, and I don't really rate the guy in UCC - but in others would count against. It's not a simple, "Oh, it's the same", because it's not. We do not have enough players coming through that we can waste any, or force any to choose, because even with the natural wastage expected, we will lose out more than we can afford. Pro rugby simply isn't the be-all and end-all, and we need realise that if we glibly assume that people will always choose Munster just because, then we are making a bet we might well not win. Cian Bohane, for example, happily walked away as a pro, even when there was a contract on offer, and Christ knows we could probably do with another midfielder in cracking form right now. We do not have the luxury of numbers that would permit us to force kids to make that choice, so we'd be wiser not to make them.

                              You also can't map a SA experience across, because there is a massive cultural difference in SA. In SA, in many areas, it's normal to travel to school to board. There simply isn't an option but to, because the distances are so vast, so they start from so early an age that it's inherent. However, even there, there's no doubt that, for example, WP will do their best to work with people on education (helped somewhat by the fact that WP are based just next to UCT, but Maties are much the stronger in rugby terms). Interestingly, from his comments, it was the university made Jean Kleyn choose between WP and US; if he'd just been in Maties, it'd all have been fine.

                              And, bluntly: a rugby academy doesn't show anything. The players association make it very clear that players need to keep upskilling all the time because employers aren't going to fall over in awe at having been a pro, never mind been in an academy. Again: we can't ask kids to make that choice and think it'll work out for us, and we don't have enough that we can afford to lose any.
                              excellent post- it really is that complicated, especially given the wear and tare in the modern game.
                              Last edited by jagawayagain; 16th-April-2018, 18:39.

                              Comment


                                Does anyone know how long Chris Farrell is signed up to Munster for? Was it a 2 year contract?
                                I am the million man.

                                Comment

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