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  • acskerries
    replied
    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
    It's an unreal spot. The only place I wouldn't go near is J'burg.

    It has the best steak I've ever eaten, the beer is good and cheap, and the Saffa women are crackers. What's not to like?!
    I agree with you re Joburg. I have family in Cape Town and Durban and go out every few years. I'd be very wary in many areas, there is a lot of violent crime

    Leave a comment:


  • ormond lad
    replied
    Originally posted by KerryRed View Post
    I've no problem with discussion. Your last post was a discussion. But 50 questions without input isn't a discussion and doesn't add to the debate. Its just annoying, with most being answered easily from the post itself. Sorry if it sounded like I was coming accross harsh.

    The reason why I'd lose Italian teams is quiet simply there not competitive. It's the reason Scotland & Wales wanted them gone, and if it wasn't for Ireland's World Cup bid they may have gotten the boot.

    It would be different if there were signs of progress but this is simply not the case. Italian rugby in general is in trouble and has fallen below Georgia in the world rankings. Which okay I don't put too much stock in the World Rankings but its a worrying trend. At the moment there just a disadvantage to the league.

    And my point was instead of expanding the league or just replacing them, we could perhaps kill 2 birds with the same stone. The international fixture problem and the loss of 4 games. Which would impact on gate receipts etc.

    I'm not a fan of all the expansion talk of American, Canadian, SA teams etc. And could actually do more damage then it's worth and destabilise the league. It's hard enough running a trans national league with 3 countries in Ireland, Scotland & Wales just next door to each other.

    I don't agree with your point of we'd be better off with extra league games. Less games, with stronger team selections I think would be better. Get more fans into stadiums while raising the interest levels. Give the league more prestige. While at the same time not losing out on gate receipts etc. and giving fringe/young players a chance in a Celtic Cup. To be played during internationals.

    And your right the Welsh teams are the problem. And it's very unlikely they'll leave the LV Cup. They'd probably prefer to join the Premiership in all honestly. But they at some stage need to stop having one foot out the door.
    Im not looking for extra league games. I think keeping same number is way forward. We can field stronger teams with changes in how national coaches dictate player game time.
    Italian teams havent been competitive but we still need to be developing and expanding the game. And for that we need the italian teams fielding at a higher level. Italian rugby is struggling and hopefully Conor O Shea and Steve Aboud can change things with Aboud in Italy in the same/similar role he was in when with the IRFU.

    Leave a comment:


  • KerryRed
    replied
    Originally posted by Red October View Post
    The more invidious outcome of the strengthening of the English & French financial positions is that we are now not just seeing them hive off established names, we are seeing them begin to pull away young lads who we cannot afford to move onto relatively 'big' money quickly given our limited resources (and a bit of conservatism in terms of holding onto players at the other end of their careers for too long IMHO). That is HUGELY undermining.

    I think Pro12 are damn right to be exploring alternatives, no matter how weird & wonderful they might at first appear. If we bumble along, we're buggered. For sure there are fundamentals which still need to be worked on in order to maximise the bang out of what we currently have, but these need to be worked on in parallel with the more ambitious stuff.
    But the more I hear and read about the clubs in the English & French leagues, they all seem to be in serious financial trouble. Most living well beyond there means, racking up serious debt. Others living off sugar daddies who may one day not be there. With rumours about BT overvaluing the there TV deal and many clubs on the stroke of bankruptcy. Should we not side on caution. Just look at the Stade & Racing fiasco. Wasps in England and the move to Coventry. It's not soccer with a massive expansion awaiting into Asia, Africa, North & South America beckoning. Is it all just a overvalued bubble heading towards a crash?
    Last edited by KerryRed; 2nd-June-2017, 14:26.

    Leave a comment:


  • Red October
    replied
    Originally posted by KerryRed View Post
    And your right the Welsh teams are the problem. And it's very unlikely they'll leave the LV Cup. They'd probably prefer to join the Premiership in all honestly. But they at some stage need to stop having one foot out the door.
    Some would say that logically, we at some stage should be trying to wedge one foot in the door of the Premiership.

    Leave a comment:


  • KerryRed
    replied
    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
    Its a discussion forum if you have a problem with me discussing and debating the points made then why post in the first place?
    We did have cup competition but why reduce league games to have a cup that wont be treated like a main competition most likely and more likely see 2nd string sides. You would be better off with the league games
    Welsh wont go out of LV Cup. They want more games against English clubs and can get travelling fans. Easier to travel to plenty of the games.
    A european super league could be great but isnt ever going to happen. French wont give up on bouclier de brennus and if it didnt happen in the issues about europe that led to creation of champions cup it wont happen now.
    I've no problem with discussion. Your last post was a discussion. But 50 questions without input isn't a discussion and doesn't add to the debate. Its just annoying, with most being answered easily from the post itself. Sorry if it sounded like I was coming accross harsh.

    The reason why I'd lose Italian teams is quiet simply there not competitive. It's the reason Scotland & Wales wanted them gone, and if it wasn't for Ireland's World Cup bid they may have gotten the boot.

    It would be different if there were signs of progress but this is simply not the case. Italian rugby in general is in trouble and has fallen below Georgia in the world rankings. Which okay I don't put too much stock in the World Rankings but its a worrying trend. At the moment there just a disadvantage to the league.

    And my point was instead of expanding the league or just replacing them, we could perhaps kill 2 birds with the same stone. The international fixture problem and the loss of 4 games. Which would impact on gate receipts etc.

    I'm not a fan of all the expansion talk of American, Canadian, SA teams etc. And could actually do more damage then it's worth and destabilise the league. It's hard enough running a trans national league with 3 countries in Ireland, Scotland & Wales just next door to each other.

    I don't agree with your point of we'd be better off with extra league games. Less games, with stronger team selections I think would be better. Get more fans into stadiums while raising the interest levels. Give the league more prestige. While at the same time not losing out on gate receipts etc. and giving fringe/young players a chance in a Celtic Cup. To be played during internationals.

    And your right the Welsh teams are the problem. And it's very unlikely they'll leave the LV Cup. They'd probably prefer to join the Premiership in all honestly. But they at some stage need to stop having one foot out the door.

    Leave a comment:


  • Red October
    replied
    The more invidious outcome of the strengthening of the English & French financial positions is that we are now not just seeing them hive off established names, we are seeing them begin to pull away young lads who we cannot afford to move onto relatively 'big' money quickly given our limited resources (and a bit of conservatism in terms of holding onto players at the other end of their careers for too long IMHO). That is HUGELY undermining.

    I think Pro12 are damn right to be exploring alternatives, no matter how weird & wonderful they might at first appear. If we bumble along, we're buggered. For sure there are fundamentals which still need to be worked on in order to maximise the bang out of what we currently have, but these need to be worked on in parallel with the more ambitious stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • ormond lad
    replied
    Originally posted by KerryRed View Post
    Seriously, what's up with a hundred questions?! I'll humour you this time. Really quite simple,

    1. If you lose 2 teams in the league, your losing 4 games, 2 of which would be home games. This would lead to a drop in gate receipts for them matches. I'd bring in a cup, maybe two pools, 5 teams in a pool based on prior league standings. Each fixture plays once, 2 home, 2 away. With a semi final (if fixture congestion allows) then final. I'd play the first 2 batches of games during the Autumn internationals and the following 3-4 during the Six Nations.

    The idea of a cup is nothing new. In fact we used to have the Celtic Cup, before the Welsh teams decided to leave to play in Englands LV Cup. Most domestic cups are used as a chance for younger players or fringe players to get game time. This is nothing new, whether it be Rugby, Soccer etc. In fact the GAA even have there development cups.

    Playing this cup during the international period would as protect teams like Glasgow who lose a disproportionate amount of there players during these periods. Which is one of the biggest problems facing the league according to the PRO12 CEO Martin Anayi.

    Of course this would depend on two things, firstly the Welsh clubs reversal of there decision to play in the LV Cup. Secondly, the Italian teams exiting the league.

    2. Yes as I said a European Super League I don't believe would be financially viable. Though I'd be great to see. And would be massive for the development of the game in Europe. But the logistical costs would be too costly I'd imagine. Plus probably not enough interest either. I think the Italian sides would be best suited joining D2 in France.Where they could be more competitive and better aid there long term development. We also shouldn't eject the Italian sides unless they have a viable option in line.

    But this is the whole point of the thread. To discuss the Future of the PRO12. Including ideas on how it could be improved. And sometimes spitballing ideas like a think tank. It's the summer on a Munster Rugby thread, what else are we doing? Other then talking internationals and Lions. Mine is just an opinion. And I really don't want to write a thesis on ever point I make Ormond Lad, or see question after question afterwards. I simply don't have the interest or time to answer them all.
    Its a discussion forum if you have a problem with me discussing and debating the points made then why post in the first place?
    We did have cup competition but why reduce league games to have a cup that wont be treated like a main competition most likely and more likely see 2nd string sides. You would be better off with the league games
    Welsh wont go out of LV Cup. They want more games against English clubs and can get travelling fans. Easier to travel to plenty of the games.
    A european super league could be great but isnt ever going to happen. French wont give up on bouclier de brennus and if it didnt happen in the issues about europe that led to creation of champions cup it wont happen now.

    Leave a comment:


  • dropkick
    replied
    Originally posted by Red October View Post
    I find myself wondering at what point the light finally begins to dawn that professional rugby and competing on the top levels is just not a flyer financially, at least not in any way remotely connected to the club/provincial set-up and competitive landscape we currently enjoy; for the smaller nations.

    Excuse me, not smaller nations; smaller tv markets.

    It is no longer about growing the game, in terms of growing the numbers PLAYING the game; it has become about growing the game in terms of growing the numbers PAYING (to watch) the game.

    If we don't crack new major TV markets, then we're the goose which has been placed in the range on a very, very low heat and left to it's own devices.

    I frigging hate professionalism.

    This. I remember Scottish soccer teams in the 90s could outbid English teams for players. Now the likes of Celtic have to go bargain hunting for players.The problem for the likes of Celtic and Rangers is the bigger the premier league got, it started to suck up more and more resources and now even the English first division is awash with money. It was always heading that way since sky came on board.


    I used Scottish soccer as an extreme example but its already happening to the provinces. We could sign the best foreign players not so long ago but nowadays the French and lately the English are outbidding our teams for the top players.


    Last year the Pro12s Martin Anayi spoke about chimney stacks in the pro12 territory and it was a good point. Technically you could say Italy is part of the pro12 territory but realistically rugby is probably a minority sport there and won't grow until their teams become competitive. By bringing in more countries there will be many hurdles but at the end of the day if they can gather more chimney stacks than the French and English things could get interesting in the long term. Rome wasn't built in a day.


    Its better to act now than look back in 10 years time and regret not doing anything. Theres little to lose by doing it but a lot to gain if things go right.
    Last edited by dropkick; 2nd-June-2017, 11:31.

    Leave a comment:


  • Red October
    replied
    On your last point - I don't see there being any other way either.

    I can see Celtic sides playing in an Aviva British & Irish Premiership and/or slogging it out in the lower divisions feeding into it. The Italians doing the same with the French. Not really seeing a long term alternative which looks to be viable as things stand.

    Issue then becomes at what point the Premier Division ringfences itself from relegation in order to better ensure a return for the monies being invested.

    Leave a comment:


  • rathbaner
    replied
    New Zealand has a small TV audience and seems to manage OK. I believe that's Ireland's template too, to drive standards and reside in the top 3 international sides with England and New Zealand.

    That makes our provinces worth having on board whenever the next shake down comes along. The long term financial future of Irish pro rugby is either an accommodation with the English or with the Kiwis and Saffers

    Leave a comment:


  • KerryRed
    replied
    Originally posted by Red October View Post
    I find myself wondering at what point the light finally begins to dawn that professional rugby and competing on the top levels is just not a flyer financially, at least not in any way remotely connected to the club/provincial set-up and competitive landscape we currently enjoy; for the smaller nations.

    Excuse me, not smaller nations; smaller tv markets.

    It is no longer about growing the game, in terms of growing the numbers PLAYING the game; it has become about growing the game in terms of growing the numbers PAYING (to watch) the game.

    If we don't crack new major TV markets, then we're the goose which has been placed in the range on a very, very low heat and left to it's own devices.

    I frigging hate professionalism.
    Agreed, feel we're losing the whole point of what we're doing. Unfortunately it's sugar daddies in England & France driving this and we're trying to keep up with the Jones's. And it doesn't look like a CAP is enforceable, and in many cases not wanted.

    Leave a comment:


  • KerryRed
    replied
    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
    How would reducing to a pro10 with cup during internationals help player development or gate receipts??
    And a european super league isnt like you suggest wouldnt be financially viable.
    Seriously, what's up with a hundred questions?! I'll humour you this time. Really quite simple,

    1. If you lose 2 teams in the league, your losing 4 games, 2 of which would be home games. This would lead to a drop in gate receipts for them matches. I'd bring in a cup, maybe two pools, 5 teams in a pool based on prior league standings. Each fixture plays once, 2 home, 2 away. With a semi final (if fixture congestion allows) then final. I'd play the first 2 batches of games during the Autumn internationals and the following 3-4 during the Six Nations.

    The idea of a cup is nothing new. In fact we used to have the Celtic Cup, before the Welsh teams decided to leave to play in Englands LV Cup. Most domestic cups are used as a chance for younger players or fringe players to get game time. This is nothing new, whether it be Rugby, Soccer etc. In fact the GAA even have there development cups.

    Playing this cup during the international period would as protect teams like Glasgow who lose a disproportionate amount of there players during these periods. Which is one of the biggest problems facing the league according to the PRO12 CEO Martin Anayi.

    Of course this would depend on two things, firstly the Welsh clubs reversal of there decision to play in the LV Cup. Secondly, the Italian teams exiting the league.

    2. Yes as I said a European Super League I don't believe would be financially viable. Though I'd be great to see. And would be massive for the development of the game in Europe. But the logistical costs would be too costly I'd imagine. Plus probably not enough interest either. I think the Italian sides would be best suited joining D2 in France.Where they could be more competitive and better aid there long term development. We also shouldn't eject the Italian sides unless they have a viable option in line.

    But this is the whole point of the thread. To discuss the Future of the PRO12. Including ideas on how it could be improved. And sometimes spitballing ideas like a think tank. It's the summer on a Munster Rugby thread, what else are we doing? Other then talking internationals and Lions. Mine is just an opinion. And I really don't want to write a thesis on ever point I make Ormond Lad, or see question after question afterwards. I simply don't have the interest or time to answer them all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Gibson
    replied
    Wouldn't there be an issue in having to play during the South African Summer??? The average high temperature in Bloemfontein from Nov - Feb is 28-30 degrees.

    Leave a comment:


  • Red October
    replied
    I find myself wondering at what point the light finally begins to dawn that professional rugby and competing on the top levels is just not a flyer financially, at least not in any way remotely connected to the club/provincial set-up and competitive landscape we currently enjoy; for the smaller nations.

    Excuse me, not smaller nations; smaller tv markets.

    It is no longer about growing the game, in terms of growing the numbers PLAYING the game; it has become about growing the game in terms of growing the numbers PAYING (to watch) the game.

    If we don't crack new major TV markets, then we're the goose which has been placed in the range on a very, very low heat and left to it's own devices.

    I frigging hate professionalism.

    Leave a comment:


  • ormond lad
    replied
    Originally posted by KerryRed View Post
    I don't know about all this TBH. I kind of feel like money is driving the game in the wrong direction. I'd actually prefer a PRO10, with perhaps a Cup during Internationals. Could help with player development and any dropped gate receipts etc.

    I'd actually like to see a European Super League, a fourth proffesional league in Europe with teams from the likes of Italy, Germany, Romania, Georgia etc. Probably not feasible though.

    The idea of relegation & pools in a cross national league makes me nervous. I think the progress of the league has been massive. I worry this could destabilise it.
    How would reducing to a pro10 with cup during internationals help player development or gate receipts??
    And a european super league isnt like you suggest wouldnt be financially viable.

    Leave a comment:

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