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Are we producing enough top class players?

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    Are we producing enough top class players?

    For a little while there (around 2-4 years ago) it seemed like we were going to be churning out international class players again after a dry spell. Murray, Zebo, Kilcoyne, O'Donnell, Sherry, Hanrahan etc were all coming through and were being discussed as future internationals. Some have made it and others have been hampered for varying reasons. They are now all over 25 or playing elsewhere in the case of Hanrahan.

    So where is the next group? O'Donoghue seems to be the only home grown young player that anyone seems confident will make the top grade. Are there others?

    Surely we'd want to be bringing through at least 1-3 new players every year to replenish.

    Would this be accurate? Would you agree?

    Is this achievable given population/playing numbers?

    #2
    Some of the players aren't getting the chances at international level to bring them on as the Ireland had coach picks who he knows and not the form players
    Stand up and fight

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      #3
      Who on form has not been selected or given a chance though?
      Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

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        #4
        Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post
        Who on form has not been selected or given a chance though?
        That statement should read "who not on form has been selected or given a chance?" and there are entire threads devoted to that discussion so let's not go down that rabbit hole.
        "Everything good about Ireland can be found in County Cork"....Lonely Planet Guide 2012

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          #5
          Fair enough GrandpaS, but the question does hold up under the timeframe of 2-4 years in the OP, pretty much everyone has been given their chance.
          Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

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            #6
            Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post
            Fair enough GrandpaS, but the question does hold up under the timeframe of 2-4 years in the OP, pretty much everyone has been given their chance.

            Some promising players at u20 and u19 level this year who both won the interpro championship !

            A lot can happen in a few years but THERE MUST BE SOME PROSPECTS !!

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              #7
              Two players under 28 started for Leinster on Saturday. That speaks volumes about the conservatism in Irish rugby.
              My computer thinks I'm gay
              What's the difference anyway
              When all the people do all day
              Is stare into a phone

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                #8
                Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post
                Who on form has not been selected or given a chance though?
                Are we talking about international level? Our props for sure. Kilcoyne, Cronin and Archer have not been exposed to international level rugby, which is undoubtedly something that would bring them on. Schmidt fecking apologised to Michael Bent after the WC squad was announced, MICHAEL BENT!! Killer is not a fela to keep the mouth shut, unfortunately, and himself and Schmidt had words about his non-selection. Some coaches would appreciate a guy letting off steam because he wasn't picked but Schmidt likes to mould players and will probably be put off by Killer independent streak.

                Personally, I think non-selection for the Ireland team could be a good thing for Munster. Foley knows what it was like being a bitter cun.t in the late 90s when the coaches were ignoring him. He could breed a whole forward squad of bitter cun.ts and theres nothing better than that. I worried about the backs though, we SHOULD NOT have let JJ go but we need to bring through a good outhalf, centre or two and full-back now that Felix is gone. Outside of Bleyendaal, and even here I'm not certain, I don't see any of the imports (2nd rate LEinstermen or 2nd rate NIQs) doing the job for us. We really need Bohane or someone to make a BIG jump

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Brenny View Post
                  Are we talking about international level? Our props for sure. Kilcoyne, Cronin and Archer have not been exposed to international level rugby, which is undoubtedly something that would bring them on. Schmidt fecking apologised to Michael Bent after the WC squad was announced, MICHAEL BENT!! Killer is not a fela to keep the mouth shut, unfortunately, and himself and Schmidt had words about his non-selection. Some coaches would appreciate a guy letting off steam because he wasn't picked but Schmidt likes to mould players and will probably be put off by Killer independent streak.

                  Personally, I think non-selection for the Ireland team could be a good thing for Munster. Foley knows what it was like being a bitter cun.t in the late 90s when the coaches were ignoring him. He could breed a whole forward squad of bitter cun.ts and theres nothing better than that. I worried about the backs though, we SHOULD NOT have let JJ go but we need to bring through a good outhalf, centre or two and full-back now that Felix is gone. Outside of Bleyendaal, and even here I'm not certain, I don't see any of the imports (2nd rate LEinstermen or 2nd rate NIQs) doing the job for us. We really need Bohane or someone to make a BIG jump
                  Kilcoyne 15 Ireland caps: missing the 2015 6N due to injury
                  Cronin 2 Ireland caps: named in 2015 6N squad, injured on 6N debut v Italy, ruled out for 1 month afterwards
                  Archer 2 Ireland caps: capped in 6N against Italy, also capped against Australia, must note that he does suffer from kneck injuries and seems to be behind Botha in Munster


                  more than open to correction on any of the above, all of the above comes from link below:


                  http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php
                  Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post
                    Kilcoyne 15 Ireland caps: missing the 2015 6N due to injury
                    Cronin 2 Ireland caps: named in 2015 6N squad, injured on 6N debut v Italy, ruled out for 1 month afterwards
                    Archer 2 Ireland caps: capped in 6N against Italy, also capped against Australia, must note that he does suffer from kneck injuries and seems to be behind Botha in Munster


                    more than open to correction on any of the above, all of the above comes from link below:


                    http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php
                    Facts cannot get in the way of bitterness.

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                      #11
                      I think there is a definite splitting of this thread possible, from a Munster point of view I think the main question is framed around the question of whether the Academy is producing enough prospects, and leading on from that, are the Munster senior squad turning those prospects into international contenders?

                      Being totally blunt I don't think enough of either thing are happening, if the provinces want to remain competitive in Europe then I truly believe there needs to be a sea change in the selection and blooding policy at all the provinces, so that youngfellas are truly competing to be picked at 18/19/20 years of age. Backing the youth will have 2 benefits I think, firstly we will improve the depth and competition within the squad and secondly, it'll force the academies to create more quality, more onus on early development.

                      Looking at our own province, they need 2/3 real contenders every season to come through and help create a buffer when Toulon come waving the chequebook for one of our big names. For Ireland, any nation that can produce Paul O'Connell Drico and Rog in short order must have been doing something very right, and getting the nucleus of whatever created them and a few other household names needs to be identified and given a massive dose of miracle grow.
                      I am the million man.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post
                        Kilcoyne 15 Ireland caps: missing the 2015 6N due to injury
                        Cronin 2 Ireland caps: named in 2015 6N squad, injured on 6N debut v Italy, ruled out for 1 month afterwards
                        Archer 2 Ireland caps: capped in 6N against Italy, also capped against Australia, must note that he does suffer from kneck injuries and seems to be behind Botha in Munster


                        more than open to correction on any of the above, all of the above comes from link below:


                        http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php
                        First choice Irish props, Ross and Healy, are either past their best or failing to find form after injury but let's go with these two as first choice Irish props. In all honesty, where do you think Kilcoyne, Cronin and Archer stand in Schmidt's eyes in relation to M Moore, J McGrath, N White, T Furlong and M Bent? I'll repeat that Schmidt named Bent as one of the guys who just missed the cut after he named the WC squad. Archer is behind Botha? Well where are Moore, McGrath, Furlong and Bent?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Brenny View Post
                          First choice Irish props, Ross and Healy, are either past their best or failing to find form after injury but let's go with these two as first choice Irish props. In all honesty, where do you think Kilcoyne, Cronin and Archer stand in Schmidt's eyes in relation to M Moore, J McGrath, N White, T Furlong and M Bent? I'll repeat that Schmidt named Bent as one of the guys who just missed the cut after he named the WC squad. Archer is behind Botha? Well where are Moore, McGrath, Furlong and Bent?
                          I kind of agree with Cowboy above, this thread is prob not about Ireland caps for Munster players, more about Academy prospects coming through

                          But I'm just answering the charge that these guys have not been given a chance on the basis of their form.
                          I don't know if Archer is behind Botha, but Botha seems to be starting in Europe so far (1 match fair enough, but it still stands).

                          I don't know where Kilcoyne, Cronin or Archer stand wrt selection for Ireland, but it does appear that at least Kilcoyne and Cronin have been given caps, but have been subsequently injured. I'm not 100% up on the Archer situation - is he currently injured or in rehab?
                          this is prob not the place to talk about the front rows from the other provinces being a Munster Academy thread (?), but I do believe that most if not all of our FR options have been tried for Ireland
                          Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

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                            #14
                            Archer is injured so recent game v Treviso doesn't support argument about SA v BJB either way
                            "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                            Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                            Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post
                              I kind of agree with Cowboy above, this thread is prob not about Ireland caps for Munster players, more about Academy prospects coming through

                              But I'm just answering the charge that these guys have not been given a chance on the basis of their form.
                              I don't know if Archer is behind Botha, but Botha seems to be starting in Europe so far (1 match fair enough, but it still stands).

                              I don't know where Kilcoyne, Cronin or Archer stand wrt selection for Ireland, but it does appear that at least Kilcoyne and Cronin have been given caps, but have been subsequently injured. I'm not 100% up on the Archer situation - is he currently injured or in rehab?
                              this is prob not the place to talk about the front rows from the other provinces being a Munster Academy thread (?), but I do believe that most if not all of our FR options have been tried for Ireland
                              Killer wasn't injured this summer when the RWC squad was picked.

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