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The infamous choke tackle

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    The infamous choke tackle

    Is this just a thing in Ireland? Irish teams seem to have been doing this for quite some time now to great effect.
    Munster won a bucket load of turnovers there against edinburgh using the choke tackle and we ve seen the provinces and Ireland doing this a lot more than other sides...

    Why? are we setting the trends now in rugby? Yes we are ; )

    #2
    Barnes was very slow giving it though, normally refs are quicker ! , it came in a few years ago in the 6 nations, Les Kiss devised it as far as i know ?

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      #3
      I think it has existed as a concept for a long time but it was brought to prominence at the 2011 RWC. For some reason I though it was Gert Smal who was credited with placing such emphasis on it, but I could be wrong about that.
      Tis but a scratch.

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        #4
        To me Donncha O'Callaghan was one of the earliest and best practitioners of the skill.
        "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
        Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

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          #5
          A lot of the choke tackles are not mauls. The relevant law 17.1 states:

          A maul begins when a player carrying the ball is held by one or more opponents, and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the ball carrier. A maul therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three players, all on their feet; the ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be caught in or bound to the maul and must be on their feet and moving towards a goal line. Open play has ended.

          Many of the choke tackles are double tackles or triple tackles. There is either an absence of support for the carrier or the support players cannot bind on the carrier. These are not mauls. They are tackles, and the tacklers should be obliged to roll away upon collapse.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
            A lot of the choke tackles are not mauls. The relevant law 17.1 states:

            A maul begins when a player carrying the ball is held by one or more opponents, and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the ball carrier. A maul therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three players, all on their feet; the ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be caught in or bound to the maul and must be on their feet and moving towards a goal line. Open play has ended.

            Many of the choke tackles are double tackles or triple tackles. There is either an absence of support for the carrier or the support players cannot bind on the carrier. These are not mauls. They are tackles, and the tacklers should be obliged to roll away upon collapse.
            The don't always collapse though. I don't think ref will penalise unless he's called "maul formed" before it drops.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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              #7
              Here's a question for the refs around the place, can you be penalised for pulling down a maul if you were the team with the ball in that maul?

              i.e. when the choke tackle forms and the referee says it's a maul, it is often blatantly pulled to the ground by the team that brought the ball into the tackle. Should that not be penalty for pulling down the maul? Also, there's often cases when the players from the attacking team join the maul from the side after the choke tackle has become a maul and that's never called as a penalty either. It's as if refs call it a maul but don't see it as a "proper" maul and only officiate it as way of winning a turn-over scrum.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by déiseman View Post
                Here's a question for the refs around the place, can you be penalised for pulling down a maul if you were the team with the ball in that maul?

                i.e. when the choke tackle forms and the referee says it's a maul, it is often blatantly pulled to the ground by the team that brought the ball into the tackle. Should that not be penalty for pulling down the maul? Also, there's often cases when the players from the attacking team join the maul from the side after the choke tackle has become a maul and that's never called as a penalty either. It's as if refs call it a maul but don't see it as a "proper" maul and only officiate it as way of winning a turn-over scrum.
                Collapsing a maul is an offence, whoever does it. My view on the refereeing of tackle/maul situations is similar to yours.

                What happened is that Kiss identified a caesura in the laws in practice, exploited it to the full and the law-makers and elite referees haven't yet caught up. So far, it has been allowed, as teams have adapted to it, but any tactic that increases the number of scrums in a match is probably endangered.

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                  #9
                  In a maul the player with the ball has the right to attempt to go to ground if he/she wishes. If they do, or attempt it then the ball needs to be available to played immediately or else it is a scrum turnover. It's all in the laws.

                  Anyone else collapsing a maul deliberately is committing an offence.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by déiseman View Post
                    Here's a question for the refs around the place, can you be penalised for pulling down a maul if you were the team with the ball in that maul?

                    i.e. when the choke tackle forms and the referee says it's a maul, it is often blatantly pulled to the ground by the team that brought the ball into the tackle. Should that not be penalty for pulling down the maul? Also, there's often cases when the players from the attacking team join the maul from the side after the choke tackle has become a maul and that's never called as a penalty either. It's as if refs call it a maul but don't see it as a "proper" maul and only officiate it as way of winning a turn-over scrum.
                    You're not likely to be pinged for collapsing, I'd say. If you get to ground, even after a maul is called, and the ball is on the floor and presentable, refs will let you play it. If the ball isn't, then it's viewed as a failed maul, with scrum put in to defending team.

                    Basically, you've got two shoves to get it forward and get it out, or you're going to lose the ball. Can't remember seeing an attacking side penalised for collapsing though.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by nuke View Post
                      In a maul the player with the ball has the right to attempt to go to ground if he/she wishes. If they do, or attempt it then the ball needs to be available to played immediately or else it is a scrum turnover. It's all in the laws.

                      Anyone else collapsing a maul deliberately is committing an offence.
                      Player with the ball does, but what's the ruling if I, as support for the attacking side, take out the holding player and the ball is left presentable? I can't imagine that that isn't happening, but I've not seen it pinged.

                      Are the attacking side allowed to "help" the ball carrier to the floor?
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        #12
                        It's ceratinly something trained and engrianed in Irish players, from watching some of the other games over the weekend, when similar situations occured in matches, ie, tackled player being held up, we (Munster/Leinster/Ulster) immediately went into 'choke tackle mode' while among Eng/French/Scot teams it certainly looked if that wasn't the first thing players thought of
                        Nulla semper amicus, servivit mihi, in iniuriam mihi neminem quem non persolvi

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                          #13
                          My own thoughts is that it's a little over used at present
                          Con Artist

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                            #14
                            I remember being taught to do this when I was playing u13/u14 15 years ago. It's certainly not a new thing.
                            I know something that will blow your minds. I can't tell you and I can't tell you why I can't tell you. You'll know soon and then I'll be confirmed right.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Valencia View Post
                              My own thoughts is that it's a little over used at present
                              It will be as long as Refs have conniptions at the notion of players competing at the breakdown. Ruck ball is lost ball these days for a defence, and in your own 22 there's a reasonably high risk of conceding a penalty.

                              The choke tackle isn't just about winning scrum turnovers, imo. It's about avoiding the mess that is the refs interpretation of the ruck, especially in areas of the pitch where penalties are high risk.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment

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