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Why does Munster (and Irish) rugby consistently fail to unleash young talent?

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  • deadlyBuzz
    replied
    Originally posted by Brenny View Post
    Are you trying to sneak in some smart comment here or am I just getting paranoid? Why the capital letter for 'eye.'
    Nope. Just using outr 2 best young players as an example of players who will be tempted by big bucks in Fance.
    As for the caps.. I just like them. I have to go through almost every document I write and update for correct capitalisation.

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  • Brenny
    replied
    Originally posted by deadlyBuzz View Post
    Personally, with the IRFUs news of debt and cash issues, I think we may see more players getting their chances as players leave overseas for money the IRFU / provinces can no longer afford to pay them.
    Murray and Zebo will have an Eye turned in the next few years and will have to be replaced. With the Gerry Hurley Scenario, we could see AIL and Academy players get more and more opportunities as a cheaper alternative expensive foreigners.
    I don't want to see the IRFU go down the same avenue as the WRU but would Leigh Halfpenney have got as much a chance to progress with Lee Byrne or James Hook still at their provinces???
    Are you trying to sneak in some smart comment here or am I just getting paranoid? Why the capital letter for 'eye.'

    Originally posted by cornerboy View Post
    [/B]
    If Leigh Halfpenny was showing the potential to be better than Lee Byrne or James Hook, then he would have taken their place. Cream rises to the top.....young players who show potential will get opportunities, the genuinely good ones take that chance.
    This just isn't true at all.

    Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
    sorry but that simply isn't true and there are people saying it openly in the media now as well. If young players are always bit part players it doesn't matter what they do they won't progress for as long as the other player is the first choice no matter what. We've seen that enough in Irish rugby to know it. Gaffney ran an entire squad on that basis.
    Exactly, if Sexton had stayed where he was then Madigan was going to play second fiddle at Leinster for the whole of next season no matter how many Mark Ella style performances he put in. That is just simply the way it is and no, that wouldn't have made Madigan a better player. That would have been bad for Madigan and bad for Irish rugby.

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  • Evil Omer
    replied
    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
    well even carter started as a 12 so Id agree there. its a big year for keatley
    potential in attack of Keatley and Hanrahan, with option of Downey at IC as well, maybe Earls at OC and Zebo, Jones and our new import or Conway across back 3 is pretty good

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  • Red October
    replied
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

    Big gamble to place all his eggs in the JJ basket when he's only a kid
    Worked out reasonably ok for Deccie when he did similar with a wetnosed ROG.

    Although Jeremy Staunton mightn't agree.

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  • The Outlaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
    Most of his appearances have been at IC and as everyone keeps pointing out, that's the safe way to develop talent for OH.
    well even carter started as a 12 so Id agree there. its a big year for keatley

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  • Evil Omer
    replied
    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
    I dunno about that. I think he sees Hanrahan as a 10 and just decided last year he'd need the likes of ROG to steer the ship in the latter stages of the HEC. I'd say he just felt it was a year too soon.

    If he saw him as a genuine 12 I think he'd have played him there as the spot was available right up to March. Not many players go from junior rugby to starting senior rugby at 10 first year out. Your 10 is your quarterback so he's a pivotal player for any coach. In other words he has to fully trust him.

    I've no doubt he'll get plenty of time this year but it really shows in my view what irish clubs could do with twinning up with French clubs and getting their young players game-time at a high level instead of playing AIL.
    Most of his appearances have been at IC and as everyone keeps pointing out, that's the safe way to develop talent for OH.

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  • Cowboy
    replied
    I'd also suggest that Penney realised the candle was going out on Rog and he needed to bolster Keats as much as possible prior to this coming season. He's been building him up and backing him since he got here because he is going to be the starting 10 for Munster for the second half of Penneys contract.


    Big gamble to place all his eggs in the JJ basket when he's only a kid

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  • Cowboy
    replied
    I think he's a 10 as well outlaw. His passing off both hands is superb, he seems extremely vocal and likes to lead his team. Not able to use his strongest assets from 12 getting steam rollered by tanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Outlaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
    Yep Penney gave lots of younger guys match time in NZ, but that doesn't answer the fact he's binned lots of guys in Munster and clearly wrote off most of the younger talent, including Hanrahan, last season when he kept selecting the same underperformers no matter what, including selecting an OC at IC where he played seriously poor, rather than those guys. I honestly do get the impression Penney has a very low opinion of the youth in Munster at least and that include a nominee for junior world player.

    I dunno about that. I think he sees Hanrahan as a 10 and just decided last year he'd need the likes of ROG to steer the ship in the latter stages of the HEC. I'd say he just felt it was a year too soon.

    If he saw him as a genuine 12 I think he'd have played him there as the spot was available right up to March. Not many players go from junior rugby to starting senior rugby at 10 first year out. Your 10 is your quarterback so he's a pivotal player for any coach. In other words he has to fully trust him.

    I've no doubt he'll get plenty of time this year but it really shows in my view what irish clubs could do with twinning up with French clubs and getting their young players game-time at a high level instead of playing AIL.

    Leave a comment:


  • jeepers
    replied
    Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
    Yep Penney gave lots of younger guys match time in NZ, but that doesn't answer the fact he's binned lots of guys in Munster and clearly wrote off most of the younger talent, including Hanrahan, last season when he kept selecting the same underperformers no matter what, including selecting an OC at IC where he played seriously poor, rather than those guys. I honestly do get the impression Penney has a very low opinion of the youth in Munster at least and that include a nominee for junior world player.

    Bleyendaal (baby black captain and 10 in 2010) disappeared for a year with Canterbury after being shortlisted for Junior Player of the Year in the year Julia Savea won it.

    He made his ITM Cup debut in 2011 (about 14 months after the JWC).
    He has 5 Super Rugby caps with the Crusaders (debut in 2012 v Blues).

    Looks like Penney has JJ on a similar type of schedule to him, though it looks like JJ will have more than 5 Hcup caps by the end of this season.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thomond78
    replied
    Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
    sorry but that simply isn't true and there are people saying it openly in the media now as well. If young players are always bit part players it doesn't matter what they do they won't progress for as long as the other player is the first choice no matter what. We've seen that enough in Irish rugby to know it. Gaffney ran an entire squad on that basis.
    Halfpenny went on the 2009 Lions with Byrne, after playing with Wales (on the wing) that season. Hook was on the bench. Gatland dropped him for Mark Jones for the GS game - thankfully.

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  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
    Yep Penney gave lots of younger guys match time in NZ, but that doesn't answer the fact he's binned lots of guys in Munster and clearly wrote off most of the younger talent, including Hanrahan, last season when he kept selecting the same underperformers no matter what, including selecting an OC at IC where he played seriously poor, rather than those guys. I honestly do get the impression Penney has a very low opinion of the youth in Munster at least and that include a nominee for junior world player.
    Where's the evidence to back up the claim that he's written off the younger talent? I see a couple leaving but I see many others (Bohane, ROM etc.) getting contracts.

    If you look at the SH position last season, he gave Williams a very good cut at it (at the expense of a Munster ligind) and when that didn't work out he gave young Sheridan a shot. This coming season he's backing Keatley and JJ to be our OHs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evil Omer
    replied
    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
    I'm not convinced on that. Penney gave plenty of younger lads their shot when he was in NZ.

    He obviously thought he wasn't ready.

    U20's is still underage rugby. Senior rugby is more about decision making under pressure. Some of the things you get away with trying at u20's you don't get away with at senior rugby.

    Plus he's unlikely to get much of a run at 12 if Downey is there because Downey is more a Munster style 12 and suits the style better.
    Yep Penney gave lots of younger guys match time in NZ, but that doesn't answer the fact he's binned lots of guys in Munster and clearly wrote off most of the younger talent, including Hanrahan, last season when he kept selecting the same underperformers no matter what, including selecting an OC at IC where he played seriously poor, rather than those guys. I honestly do get the impression Penney has a very low opinion of the youth in Munster at least and that include a nominee for junior world player.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evil Omer
    replied
    Originally posted by cornerboy View Post
    [/B]
    If Leigh Halfpenny was showing the potential to be better than Lee Byrne or James Hook, then he would have taken their place. Cream rises to the top.....young players who show potential will get opportunities, the genuinely good ones take that chance.
    sorry but that simply isn't true and there are people saying it openly in the media now as well. If young players are always bit part players it doesn't matter what they do they won't progress for as long as the other player is the first choice no matter what. We've seen that enough in Irish rugby to know it. Gaffney ran an entire squad on that basis.

    Leave a comment:


  • TokyoMunster
    replied
    You do realize you just paraphrased what I already said and then called me 'unrealistic' for it.
    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
    I think you're being totally unrealistic to he demands of professional sport. This isn't the amateur era anymore. A coach has a contract and he isn't thinking beyond that. thats the same in all sports. Its up to the Munster Branch to worry about the future. Which they have now. If they're good enough they'll break through especially now with central contracts on the wane at last.

    Leave a comment:

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