Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why does Munster (and Irish) rugby consistently fail to unleash young talent?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Why does Munster (and Irish) rugby consistently fail to unleash young talent?

    The conservative nature of Irish rugby with regard to taking a punt on new talent does kind of annoy me. I mean Cian Bohane will be 22 at the end of this month. There's a lot of talk around Munster of trying Denis Hurley at 12 this year and given his limited pace and solid defense, it might actually be his best position.

    However, he's 29 years old and with all due respect to the lad I don't think he's going to set the world alight wherever he plays. He's a solid performer and a good squad player but that's probably about it. On the other hand, Bohane could be a beast at 12 for us if he's given a shot in the Rabo this season sharing the duties along with Downey but does anyone really believe he will be? Going on precedence, it's hard to have much confidence.


    How many Ryans and O'Donnells do we have to have before we learn a lesson and not end up discovering top class talent when they're in their mid rather than early 20s or even teens (Ardie Savea featured for the Hurricanes in the Super 15 this season and he's only 19)


    Look at JJ, he was nominated for IRB Junior Player of the year along with Jan Serfontein. Serfontein is now a capped Springbok and is into his second season of action for the Bulls. What's JJ looking at? A season as back up to Keatley in all likelihood? Shouldn't it be the other way round given their respective abilities. Harsh on Keatley I know but JJ is 20. He's old enough to be given his shot at running the show.


    I realize that talent has to be managed and you can't just go flinging young lads in before they're ready and possibly regressing their development but Christ, will we have to wait till the likes of new exciting academy recruits John Madigan and Greg O'Shea are in their mid to late 20s before we see them given their opportunity to shine? I hope not. But it wouldn't surprise me at all.
    Last edited by TokyoMunster; 21st-July-2013, 00:38.

    #2
    Irish rugby has always been conservative in terms of selection. That being said, I think that there have been plenty of young guys who have progressed quickly and have been given their opportunities in recent times. Players like SOB, Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Cian Healey, Simon Zebo, Ian Madigan, and so on. Some guys just take more time than others to develop. Take Sexton for example. He didnt really break into the Irish or Leinster squad untill he was 25/26. That probably wasnt helped by the fact that he was behind Contemponi at Leinster or ROG for Ireland. Tommy Odonnell seems to be another late boomer. I had seen him play for munster years back and had never been overly impressed. But then again I think he had problems with injuries too if I can remember. JJ probably could have been given more game time this past year for munster, but I think he will play more often come next season. I have a feeling that he and Keatley will probably interchange alot at 12 and flyhalf( at least that would be ideal)

    But in short, Irish rugby certainly could take more risks with the young talent thats available

    Comment


      #3
      Yeah the examples you cite are fair enough. And you could add a few more like Earls etc. I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen, rather that it doesn't happen nearly enough in my opinion. (One maybe you share) I don't know whether it's innate conservativism or too much loyalty to veteran warriors but we don't seem to be as good at bringing our promising talent through as the Southern Hemisphere nations. When lads are 20/21 they are generally more than ready to get in there and get the experience they need to either sink or swim. And it's too easy to just blame the national coach but he has to work with what's coming through at provincial level. We've got the NIQ limitation rules for a reason and that's to help with bringing young talent through in the Provinces. Personally, I don't think we're doing that as well as we could.

      Comment


        #4
        I don't think it's too much loyalty as such. We just don't have that many first team slots. All the ML teams are bringing players through 2-4 first team slots.

        And there's often more to individual cases than meets the eye. Form, discipline, attitude etc.

        You'd have to ask, for instance, why if Murray can come through and force selection in a position where Ireland had TOL, Reddan, Boss and Stringer available such a breakthrough has eluded guys in less competitive positions.

        There's no automatic queue that I can see for JJ and Keats, for instance. Keats isn't an international, and he's not likely to figure ahead of Sexton or Madigan.

        If JJ can't convince Penney he's a better option this year, then I'd assume the issue is with JJ.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          #5
          If the player is physically ready ie Murray or the position is not as demanding physically such as wing then talented players can be brought through quickly. Other players namely Jackson have got their chance because there is no one senior ahead of them . It takes time for players to physically mature and the schools and provinces will not load weights on young frames others more qualified will say whether this policy is the correct one or not .

          Comment


            #6
            Seems to me that young players only get a chance if there is an injury, otherwise it is a case of sit on the bench and serve your time.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
              I don't think it's too much loyalty as such. We just don't have that many first team slots. All the ML teams are bringing players through 2-4 first team slots.

              And there's often more to individual cases than meets the eye. Form, discipline, attitude etc.

              You'd have to ask, for instance, why if Murray can come through and force selection in a position where Ireland had TOL, Reddan, Boss and Stringer available such a breakthrough has eluded guys in less competitive positions.

              There's no automatic queue that I can see for JJ and Keats, for instance. Keats isn't an international, and he's not likely to figure ahead of Sexton or Madigan.

              If JJ can't convince Penney he's a better option this year, then I'd assume the issue is with JJ.
              I get the impression Penney has come with the view that NH backs and Irish backs in particular aren't that great. The clear out of players, the use of CLL and Dougie however poor their form, the reliance on ROG (a proven but faded force) to me suggests he simply doesn't rate the talent available. Hanrahan was a candidate for world player of the year but apparently he's a piss poor provincial player? (He'd have to be to not get game time when our OH and IC performances for most of this year were varying from average to appalling).

              Murray was slightly different anyway, Stringer for whatever reason was out of favour and TOL was mixing injury and appalling performances, that opened the Munster slot for him, then you have Boss (who was decent but seems to have peaked and dipped but offers the physical) and Reddan who is a better SH but gets rag dolled too much at international level, making the chance for Murray, who has both sides to his game, to come through. I don't think the queue in front of him was as amazing as people think by just posting the names without any challenging of their real status.
              Last edited by Evil Omer; 21st-July-2013, 09:11.
              \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Viigand View Post
                Seems to me that young players only get a chance if there is an injury, otherwise it is a case of sit on the bench and serve your time.
                injury and international duty have been the greatest drivers for new players coming through by a mile ever since we went fully professional.
                \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

                Comment


                  #9
                  Have to agree overall with the conservatism issue. We are too conservative in alot of ways at bringing talent through. However, as others have said there are exceptions, Murray probably being the biggest given his rise.

                  But that being said the JJ issue is puzzling. Overall this season according to reports didn't have a great time in the AIL with Bohs, but in his 1st start against Zebre he scored two tries, not the greatest side yes, but play whats in front of you. His reward for that and an all round great performance was the AIL the following week. When players play like that you put them in the next week and say 'show me that wasn't a one off' he didn't get that chance and only played about 10 mins against Scarlets at the end of Nov.

                  Clearly something happened that we are not privy to but to me it just seemed odd that he did what was asked of him and more against Zebre and didn't get the chance to push on.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    People tend to have a very one sided view on bringing young players through in the big time early with this juvenile expectation that the sooner they're brought through the longer they'll have playing at the very top level. The reality is while we may not have very many teens and early twenties playing at the highest level we have above and beyond the normal level of 30 somethings playing to a very high standard. I don't think we're getting less mileage out of players, just getting it at different stages of their career.
                    Should also be considered the number of young players from other countries emerging early and not necessarily building on their promising start with a strong career. Money, power and expectation burdening players from an age they're not equipped to deal with these things very often can cause careers to self destruct. We've seen with Cipriani, Guilford, Beale, O'Connor, Cooper, Henson etc a lot of wonderkids not dealing with these issues in any sort of sensible way to the detriment of their career. More locally and less notably is the early introduction of guys like Earls, Fitzgerald and Cave who were perhaps given too much too soon and found their career in a negative spiral. Even BOD, had he not possessed such an incredibly professional attitude could have seen his career capitulate after 2005. He reinvented his entire role as a player, most would not.

                    Other countries with larger pools can afford these sort of risks on young players, adding them to the scrapheap at 25 isn't a problem and is often done. We need to be more careful with our resources. Forcing them to earn their place and waiting until they're good enough to do that no matter how long it takes is the correct approach.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                      I don't think it's too much loyalty as such. We just don't have that many first team slots. All the ML teams are bringing players through 2-4 first team slots.

                      And there's often more to individual cases than meets the eye. Form, discipline, attitude etc.

                      You'd have to ask, for instance, why if Murray can come through and force selection in a position where Ireland had TOL, Reddan, Boss and Stringer available such a breakthrough has eluded guys in less competitive positions.

                      There's no automatic queue that I can see for JJ and Keats, for instance. Keats isn't an international, and he's not likely to figure ahead of Sexton or Madigan.

                      If JJ can't convince Penney he's a better option this year, then I'd assume the issue is with JJ.
                      We're often very delusional in Irish Rugby as to how good some of the young talent is. A couple of ML games against the Dragons doesn't mean someone will be a 50 cap international.

                      Professional rugby is built on winning and for the more successful sides its difficult to promote a lot of young players at the same time because the coach is expected to win.

                      We only have 4 teams and its time for players to start going abroad more often instead of sitting on the bench or in the stand for their province with absolutely no hope of getting a game.
                      I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Adam1986 View Post
                        Have to agree overall with the conservatism issue. We are too conservative in alot of ways at bringing talent through. However, as others have said there are exceptions, Murray probably being the biggest given his rise.

                        But that being said the JJ issue is puzzling. Overall this season according to reports didn't have a great time in the AIL with Bohs, but in his 1st start against Zebre he scored two tries, not the greatest side yes, but play whats in front of you. His reward for that and an all round great performance was the AIL the following week. When players play like that you put them in the next week and say 'show me that wasn't a one off' he didn't get that chance and only played about 10 mins against Scarlets at the end of Nov.

                        Clearly something happened that we are not privy to but to me it just seemed odd that he did what was asked of him and more against Zebre and didn't get the chance to push on.
                        number of times he came on and showed a passing set that was missing from the side and the physicality required but then was out again next match.
                        \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          For JJ i think the problem last year was Rog and Penney have to give his front line players game time . This season JJ will get plenty of starts and like a lot of young players in key positions his effectiveness will be up and down . Just hope those who are calling for him to be used will be patient when his form is in and out .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            ROG and Stringer were hardly OAPs when they got the lead role in the Munster squad. There's exceptions at both ends of the scale, I love to see the younger lads getting a chance but I don't understand being so hung up on the age factor.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
                              number of times he came on and showed a passing set that was missing from the side and the physicality required but then was out again next match.
                              I'm not convinced on that. Penney gave plenty of younger lads their shot when he was in NZ.

                              He obviously thought he wasn't ready.

                              U20's is still underage rugby. Senior rugby is more about decision making under pressure. Some of the things you get away with trying at u20's you don't get away with at senior rugby.

                              Plus he's unlikely to get much of a run at 12 if Downey is there because Downey is more a Munster style 12 and suits the style better.
                              I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X