Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ronan O'Gara's column in the Examiner

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #46
    I never saw Wallace outplayed - even against McCaw.
    Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
      agree with your last comment, the turnaround from potential to actual is appalling for Ireland. Staunton would almost certainly have gone further in NZ, purely because they know how to develop talent. Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with your thing about players getting comfy, some probably do but I'd blame the way that (in Munster in particular) injury is the single biggest promotion factor and has been for years. It's difficult for a guy watching someone like ROG playing pants, having just been voted the best OH in the U20s world cup, knowing that ROG is there no matter what. Same with others and same has possibly happened with Ireland as well over the years. We need a shake up of phenomenal standards to step on but it won't happen because the amateur game still strongly influences the pro game in Ireland. Said this a few times now, only BOD and POC of the real talents of the last 20 years have truly come close to reaching their true full potential.
      I see where you are coming from but not sure I agree. There have been plenty of guys for Munster and Ireland who have maximised their talents, or very close to it.

      In fact, at Munster level we had a team that were greater than the sum of their parts for large parts of the last 15 years. Guys like Bull, Flannery, Horan, DOC, Foley, Wallace, Strings, Kelly, Dowling etc. got fairly close to the top of their game in my view.

      I undestand that they are not "Real Talents" in the sense that you mean it but very often it is much harder to get the max from the special talents because they are on a different plane to the coaches.I am not sure how many of these Ireland produces anyway.

      Also, plenty of other countres have difficulty bringing through promising young players. Donald, Hook, Henson, Cipriani spring to mind without thinking too hard.

      Comment


        #48
        Maybe Evil Omer could explain how Ronan O'Gara was selected as the player of the HEC over its first 15 years?

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by HurlerOnDeDitch View Post
          I see where you are coming from but not sure I agree. There have been plenty of guys for Munster and Ireland who have maximised their talents, or very close to it.

          In fact, at Munster level we had a team that were greater than the sum of their parts for large parts of the last 15 years. Guys like Bull, Flannery, Horan, DOC, Foley, Wallace, Strings, Kelly, Dowling etc. got fairly close to the top of their game in my view.

          I undestand that they are not "Real Talents" in the sense that you mean it but very often it is much harder to get the max from the special talents because they are on a different plane to the coaches.I am not sure how many of these Ireland produces anyway.

          Also, plenty of other countres have difficulty bringing through promising young players. Donald, Hook, Henson, Cipriani spring to mind without thinking too hard.
          your comment about why we fail to get from the real talents is the point I'm coming to as well. We can over produce from solid or good guys, ROG and Strings were over achievers, neither should have been as successful as they have been. But, we don't have the ability to take the genuine talent we do get, real stellar talent and get those guys to their peak. You're right, others have also failed, but how often do NZ produce a stellar age talent that just fizzles out through development (rather than injury). The mentality is different and that's the key here, our mentality is still caught between pro training and amateur earn your place, wait your turn ethos.
          \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
            your comment about why we fail to get from the real talents is the point I'm coming to as well. We can over produce from solid or good guys, ROG and Strings were over achievers, neither should have been as successful as they have been. But, we don't have the ability to take the genuine talent we do get, real stellar talent and get those guys to their peak. You're right, others have also failed, but how often do NZ produce a stellar age talent that just fizzles out through development (rather than injury). The mentality is different and that's the key here, our mentality is still caught between pro training and amateur earn your place, wait your turn ethos.
            Who, in your opinion, would be somebody that could have been a great but didn't because of a lack of opportunity?
            To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by glorob View Post
              Maybe Evil Omer could explain how Ronan O'Gara was selected as the player of the HEC over its first 15 years?
              because he was the key to a style of rugby Munster played. Are you saying he was the best player in Europe during that time, cos I certainly wouldn't claim that. He was the best tactical controller, especially through the boot, of a match in the world - I'd be happy to take as the best at that I've ever seen. Deceptive passing game in his prime, stayed on the gain line, skip passes, flicks, misses, had the lot and at his prime had just enough pace for people taking him for granted as a kicker to pay. His best time was 6N when scored 3 tries in the tournament. But, he was never really quick (neither was Wilkinson either), lacked the physicality to be a more dominant figure with ball in hand. A guy who took a small frame and limited pace and made a huge amount from his brain, boot, tactical sense and taking his chances when they came. I didn't argue he didn't deserve the accolade, I argued he possibly overachieved in reaching it considering the greater talents of many around during that time and was helped by being part of Munster. Don't forget during that time BOD was consistently voted or nominated for player of 6N and was I believe voted the player of 6N for the same period as ROG got the accolade for the HEC. None of that makes him an exceptional talent that reached full potential. He was a good player who over reached for a variety of reasons and Munster's game plan and teams helped that. Any side with Fla, POC and Hayes as a lineout unit (and the rest weren't shabby) could afford to kick the ball a lot more and he was the absolute best at that tactical kicking game.
              \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by joeriddick View Post
                Who, in your opinion, would be somebody that could have been a great but didn't because of a lack of opportunity?
                Not sure lack of opportunity but lack of developing Staunton and Duffy I named for a start. At age 19 they were both higher rated than BOD had been. That was out there in the media at the time. Duffy at age 20 scored a try against NZ side that had the Kiwis praising him. Both had the ability to be more spectacular than the solid guys who did succeed, both spectacularly failed to deliver. That people will now laugh at the idea Duffy was a star at age level is part of the point, he's gone so far off the radar of talented players it's hard to believe it was true. I also mentioned d'Arcy as another. The lad was asked out to world cup aged 19 because he was special. When he finally broke through he was at least as good a broken play runner as Jason Robinson, absolutely stunning player but a defensively better player than Robinson ever was and with more size to him. Irish rugby turned him into a head down trundler who ended up being queried constantly over last few years. Earls again as 19/20 year old was playing the kind of inventive off the cuff rugby that a young BOD played. 6 years later, no one knows what position he's going to play and his contribution is to be slagged off by fans as not up to it at every opportunity.

                You're right there haven't been dozens of guys a year but in a 15 year period that's 6 we've produced and just 2 who became the standout stars they all could have been.
                \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

                Comment


                  #53
                  A good player who over reached? The best player ever in the HC according to sky, 3 lions tours etc, you are talking out your hoop
                  My computer thinks I'm gay
                  What's the difference anyway
                  When all the people do all day
                  Is stare into a phone

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by sewa View Post
                    A good player who over reached? The best player ever in the HC according to sky, 3 lions tours etc, you are talking out your hoop
                    No just disagreeing with your opinion. Is he a better player than BOD? BOD played in the HEC during that exact same period. Look at the starting point, he was viewed as a good player but people weren't queuing up to say this lad would be a top class international. Even in 2000 his future was still open to question. Even in 2003 he was fighting off Humphreys for the Ireland slot. To me that situation 10 years ago shows a good player who went on to achieve beyond the expectations.

                    By the way he wasn't voted the "best player ever" by the HEC. See here, "They were also charged with selecting the best ERC European Player of the last 15 years, the top ERC European Coach over the same period and choosing a winner for the ERC Fair Play Award." He was voted the top performer in the HEC during that time. Which is like MoM, if you scored lots of tries or lots of points you'd be up there in the nominations ahead of props, locks etc. It's hard to question his name has been the dominant one in the HEC during those 15 years but that he was the greatest player on view in that time is definitely open to challenge.
                    \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
                      Not sure lack of opportunity but lack of developing Staunton and Duffy I named for a start. At age 19 they were both higher rated than BOD had been. That was out there in the media at the time. Duffy at age 20 scored a try against NZ side that had the Kiwis praising him. Both had the ability to be more spectacular than the solid guys who did succeed, both spectacularly failed to deliver. That people will now laugh at the idea Duffy was a star at age level is part of the point, he's gone so far off the radar of talented players it's hard to believe it was true. I also mentioned d'Arcy as another. The lad was asked out to world cup aged 19 because he was special. When he finally broke through he was at least as good a broken play runner as Jason Robinson, absolutely stunning player but a defensively better player than Robinson ever was and with more size to him. Irish rugby turned him into a head down trundler who ended up being queried constantly over last few years. Earls again as 19/20 year old was playing the kind of inventive off the cuff rugby that a young BOD played. 6 years later, no one knows what position he's going to play and his contribution is to be slagged off by fans as not up to it at every opportunity.

                      You're right there haven't been dozens of guys a year but in a 15 year period that's 6 we've produced and just 2 who became the standout stars they all could have been.
                      Rubbish.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by glorob View Post
                        Rubbish.

                        well down for that reasoned argument, thanks for that stellar contribution and goodnight
                        \"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
                          By the way he wasn't voted the "best player ever" by the HEC. See here, "They were also charged with selecting the best ERC European Player of the last 15 years, .
                          If the bit bolded doesn't mean exactly what I said I want my money back given the HC had been going 15 years exactly at that time, one question for you, why did you go back to wumming? I remember you used to do it but now its back with a bang, did you get bored?
                          My computer thinks I'm gay
                          What's the difference anyway
                          When all the people do all day
                          Is stare into a phone

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
                            Not sure lack of opportunity but lack of developing Staunton and Duffy I named for a start. At age 19 they were both higher rated than BOD had been. That was out there in the media at the time. Duffy at age 20 scored a try against NZ side that had the Kiwis praising him. Both had the ability to be more spectacular than the solid guys who did succeed, both spectacularly failed to deliver. That people will now laugh at the idea Duffy was a star at age level is part of the point, he's gone so far off the radar of talented players it's hard to believe it was true. I also mentioned d'Arcy as another. The lad was asked out to world cup aged 19 because he was special. When he finally broke through he was at least as good a broken play runner as Jason Robinson, absolutely stunning player but a defensively better player than Robinson ever was and with more size to him. Irish rugby turned him into a head down trundler who ended up being queried constantly over last few years. Earls again as 19/20 year old was playing the kind of inventive off the cuff rugby that a young BOD played. 6 years later, no one knows what position he's going to play and his contribution is to be slagged off by fans as not up to it at every opportunity.

                            You're right there haven't been dozens of guys a year but in a 15 year period that's 6 we've produced and just 2 who became the standout stars they all could have been.
                            Injury has damaged Earls more than anything else so I can't agree that he's been under-developed. He was/is a top drawer winger and may yet make it as a top drawer centre. He was in the Munster team at 20 and a H-Cup starter at 21.
                            To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by Evil Omer View Post
                              well down for that reasoned argument, thanks for that stellar contribution and goodnight
                              To suggest ROG was a good player who over performed but Staunton was potentially world class but we failed to develop him is complete and utter rubbish

                              Comment


                                #60
                                If Staunton was going to be world class he would have been. You always hear about guys who did this or that when they were underage but don't work out one way or the other. The only reason Jeremy Staunton didn't become Dan O'Carter was because of Jeremy Staunton.
                                To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X