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John Kelly in line to follow Fitzgerald as Munster chief

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    #46
    Originally posted by Mardyke Maverick View Post
    This is a stitch up, pure and simple. Why was Kelly, who is just an ex-player with an accountancy degree (10 a penny, I'd say), chosen to oversee the hire of Penney last year?

    The Club Braces have already made their decision, which is to not rock the boat, and appoint an apparatchik to do their bidding.

    This would be all well and good if Munster were still flying high and winning HECs, but we're running a trading loss of 1million, year on year, and have a long term debt of 10 million that we can't even service the interest on. Having lost our main sponsor in the height of a recession, what we now need is an objective CEO, who has experience of running large organizations, not a relatively recent retiree, who has little more than an accountacy degree, and has never run an organization even a fraction of the size of Munster.

    If Kelly's appointed and RoG/Howlett have their contracts renewed, Munster end up looking like a head-in-the-sand, amateur organization.
    Kely is a Qualified Accountant- I have no idea what his degree is or if he has one- but get it right, a degree in Accountancy does not make you an Accountant- he has a Professional Accountancy Qualification.
    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. (Marcus Aurelius, 121-189 AD)

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      #47
      Originally posted by jeepers View Post
      The branch loan (initially 15m) was for the redevelopment of Thomond Park (and the 50% stake the IRFU have in the Stadium is the security on that loan).

      I'd still say that owing €10.5m on a €50m stadium is nothing 4 years after it was redeveloped.
      Normally I'd say to have just 10.5 million outstanding on a stadium 4/5 years after it was redeveloped was outstanding but delve a bit deeper and it looks far worse.

      Repayments missed, repayments not meeting the agreed schedule, annual operating losses of about 1 million euro when we are not servicing the loan, the only significant repayment was on the back of the 10 year tickets (which in the current climate and availability of tickets isn't available at the moment) and we now have to pay 10 million in 4 years on top of the budget cuts we need to reign in our normal budget overspend. Not what I'd call nothing.

      The IRFU already own 50% of the stadium and the branch have the option to buy out their part of the freehold by the end of 2018. unless the branch are able to pay their loan I would imagine one of the sensible options would be for the IRFU to take full ownership of the stadium.
      \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

      \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

      I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
        Normally I'd say to have just 10.5 million outstanding on a stadium 4/5 years after it was redeveloped was outstanding but delve a bit deeper and it looks far worse.

        Repayments missed, repayments not meeting the agreed schedule, annual operating losses of about 1 million euro when we are not servicing the loan, the only significant repayment was on the back of the 10 year tickets (which in the current climate and availability of tickets isn't available at the moment) and we now have to pay 10 million in 4 years on top of the budget cuts we need to reign in our normal budget overspend. Not what I'd call nothing.

        The IRFU already own 50% of the stadium and the branch have the option to buy out their part of the freehold by the end of 2018. unless the branch are able to pay their loan I would imagine one of the sensible options would be for the IRFU to take full ownership of the stadium.
        Its cheaper to borrow money from the IRFU than borrow from a bank.

        I don't see what difference it would make if the IRFU or the Munster Branch own Thomond Park (since its the Munster branch of the IRFU). As I've pointed out - its a far better position to be in than Leinster being a tenant with the RDS.

        The way its set up probably has more to do with getting local goverment grants than the Munster Branch trying to become an independent republic. The IRFU will throw Thomond Park the odd old bone of a secondary international every once in a while.

        That would be some deal if a developer secured it. Munster raise 40m and develop Thomond the IRFU get to own it for €10m.

        edit: noticed that the IRFU lost €5m on ticket sales for the AI series in 2011. The Aviva are also behind on their repayments.
        Last edited by jeepers; 23rd-January-2013, 13:33.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Daithi View Post
          In fairness to Garrett Fitzgerald he has done a really great job at Munster Rugby. When you think of where they have come from in terms of the transition from the amateur days when he took over, to where Munster Rugby is today the progress, professionalism, savy commercialisation of the brand, new stadiums, training facilities, sponsors, etc, etc, etc he and his team have been fantastic.

          I admit I'm biased, Garrett coached me both in school and in college so I know him well and have always admired him. Though there have also been a good few days when I felt like giving him a box I remember meeting him on the train comig down from Dublin not long after he was appointed to the Munster job and we had a good chat over the journey. Listening to him then, I knew the IRFU had got the right guy for the job and Munster Rugby under his leadership has gone from strength to strength which is a credit to him in fairness.

          I don't know who will be appointed and I take some guy's points in posts here about Kelly's relative inexperience, as against that in Kelly Munster Rugby would be getting a guy bang up to date with the requirements of professional rugby, who knows Munster Rugby intimately (very important IMHO), a diligent, personable and very intelligent kind of guy, who is professionally trained as an accountant and who you would feel could grow into the role and probably excel quickly enough. He is slightly inexperienced, he is also young and vibrant, is a hard worker and would develop as a CEO quickly. A year or two as CEO designate to Garrett would be the way to go to bring him on IMHO. I'd like to see him appointed tbh.
          Daithí, with the best will in the world, he is not "slightly" inexperienced, he's wearing pull-ups. We've had our fair share of guys learning key roles on the job, but your CEO should not be one of them.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by jeepers View Post
            Its cheaper to borrow money from the IRFU than borrow from a bank.

            I don't see what difference it would make if the IRFU or the Munster Branch own Thomond Park (since its the Munster branch of the IRFU). As I've pointed out - its a far better position to be in than Leinster being a tenant with the RDS.

            The way its set up probably has more to do with getting local goverment grants than the Munster Branch trying to become an independent republic. The IRFU will throw Thomond Park the odd old bone of a secondary international every once in a while.

            That would be some deal if a developer secured it. Munster raise 40m and develop Thomond the IRFU get to own it for €10m.

            edit: noticed that the IRFU lost €5m on ticket sales for the AI series in 2011. The Aviva are also behind on their repayments.
            If there is no difference in the IRFU and MB owning it why have the branch taken out a loan for it and why have a clause inserted so that they have the free hold. Its an asset as you pointed out and if we don't own it we have to pay to use it.
            \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

            \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

            I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

            Comment


              #51
              First BJ. now Garret , its only midweek, we need to go into lockdown.

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by Pixie View Post
                Kely is a Qualified Accountant- I have no idea what his degree is or if he has one- but get it right, a degree in Accountancy does not make you an Accountant- he has a Professional Accountancy Qualification.
                Mea culpa. So he is a qualified accountant. Care to address the substantive parts of my (above) argument.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by Pixie View Post
                  Kely is a Qualified Accountant- I have no idea what his degree is or if he has one- but get it right, a degree in Accountancy does not make you an Accountant- he has a Professional Accountancy Qualification.

                  Would not wish to alarm people on here but Bertie Ahern used to say he was an accountant and served his apprenticeship with Charlie Haughey before taking on the job as Irish CEO and putting the whole kaboosh on the rocks.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
                    If there is no difference in the IRFU and MB owning it why have the branch taken out a loan for it and why have a clause inserted so that they have the free hold. Its an asset as you pointed out and if we don't own it we have to pay to use it.
                    The mortgage holder usually hang onto the deeds of the house until you have paid off your loan. Its probably a legal thing.

                    Incidentally, if you have paid off 75% of your mortgage and then default, I think the bank can only claim what they are owed, not the whole thing.

                    The IRFU are stuck with it as many of the grants availed of would have specified that the ground must be used as intended (the use of Munster rugby). If they were not used in that way, the grant money (investment) would have to be paid back to the gov./county council.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Stanley View Post
                      Would not wish to alarm people on here but Bertie Ahern used to say he was an accountant and served his apprenticeship with Charlie Haughey before taking on the job as Irish CEO and putting the whole kaboosh on the rocks.
                      I don't think Michael O'Leary has a professional qualification (dropped out of Trinity) and he has done OK for RyanAir.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by jeepers View Post
                        The mortgage holder usually hang onto the deeds of the house until you have paid off your loan. Its probably a legal thing.

                        Incidentally, if you have paid off 75% of your mortgage and then default, I think the bank can only claim what they are owed, not the whole thing.

                        The IRFU are stuck with it as many of the grants availed of would have specified that the ground must be used as intended (the use of Munster rugby). If they were not used in that way, the grant money (investment) would have to be paid back to the gov./county council.
                        The MB have paid less than a third of their loan and regularly failed to meet the terms of repayments.
                        \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                        \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                        I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Red October View Post
                          Daithí, with the best will in the world, he is not "slightly" inexperienced, he's wearing pull-ups. We've had our fair share of guys learning key roles on the job, but your CEO should not be one of them.
                          He has a BComm and Chartered accountant training and he has been a Munster pro rugby player for 10-12 years or so. He knows the Munster set up and structures inside out and he is well respected by nearly everyone in or close to the game.

                          Any CEO is going to be learning the ropes. An outsider would have a much steeper learning curve than Kelly IMHO. Also they may never adapt to the culture. Munster Rugby is not a straight forward place to manage culturally and other ways I'd imagine. Yes he would be inexperienced in the role they are looking to fill but if they could bridge that with a year or 2 apprenticing into the CEO position it sould be a win win I think. Once settled in Kelly would not be likely to move too quickly which would help with continuity as well. I realise your opinion may be different on this and I respect that others will differ again, but that's just my opinion.
                          ____________________________________________
                          Munster were great when they were Munster.

                          alas they are just north munster now.......
                          ____________________________________________

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
                            The MB have paid less than a third of their loan and regularly failed to meet the terms of repayments.
                            They are only 4 years into their loan! I think they had to pay €1m anyway and that is why Munster had a deficit. But IRFU were expecting to make a huge loss. 1/2 mil. to be saved over 2 years on BJ at least. Dougie probably on buttons now. Hopefully a few more like Murray & POM get central contracts.

                            Anyway, this is like a child borrowing from a parent to run the parent's business.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Wasn't Penney CEO of some rugby region in NZ before turning to coaching fulltime? That would also be useful experience to have around the place.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by jeepers View Post
                                They are only 4 years into their loan! I think they had to pay €1m anyway and that is why Munster had a deficit. But IRFU were expecting to make a huge loss. 1/2 mil. to be saved over 2 years on BJ at least. Dougie probably on buttons now. Hopefully a few more like Murray & POM get central contracts.

                                Anyway, this is like a child borrowing from a parent to run the parent's business.
                                If the reason for the Munster operating loss is repayments on the loan then I'd wonder why the amount due on the loan has been around 10.4 million for the last 3 years.

                                See below from the IRFU accounts. To meet the loan repayment schedule Munster need to find over 3.5 million this financial year. The IRFU aren't worried about putting a provision into their accounts because the loan is secured to the Branch's share. Munster don't repay and they take 100% control.

                                The Union advanced funds to the Munster Branch in order to assist with the development of Thomond Park. The amountsadvanced are secured on the Branch’s share in Thomond Park Stadium Company Limited and on the loan advanced by the Branchto that company. Interest is chargeable on the loan to the Branch based on the effective cost of funds to the Union.Under the terms of the loan agreement, it is to be repaid on a phased basis over the next number of years and amountsoutstanding are not to exceed the following:

                                30 April 2012
                                6,767,000
                                30 April 2015
                                1,997,000
                                30 April 2013
                                5,741,000
                                30 April 2016
                                880,000
                                30 April 2014
                                3,114,000

                                The loan is to be fully repaid by 30 April 2017.Although the repayment terms under the agreement have not been met as at 30 April 2012, the Committee are confident that


                                these amounts are recoverable and no provision is necessary.
                                Last edited by overthehillprop; 23rd-January-2013, 14:53. Reason: Formatting
                                \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                                \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                                I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

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