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    Scrummaging theorists

    Seems we have quite a few here. T78, Slipper, TWIB, Point etc.

    The oft repeated and seemingly widely accepted notion is that Munster are poorly coached in the area, and that Ireland are the opposite. I'm not sure that's the case, but as my knowledge on front row play is severely limited at best, I can't offer any better alternative.

    The thing is though that Mushy can compete in the scrum with the All Blacks, Argentina, and other noted scrummaging opposition.

    Is it lack of ambition or application, or pure lazyiness that when that same player arrived back here his scrummaging frequently went to pieces?

    Surely the knowledge and techniques he used on international duty hold true locally too? Ross and Healy for example seem to be able maintain their international form in ML games.

    Is scrummaging that mentally demanding? How many scrum coaches are needed? It's genuinely very confusing. How much of the problem is with the players, and how much of that is between their ears?

    Can the issues be sorted with our current squad and coaches?



    Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
    Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

    #2
    My view on our scrum coaching changed when I talked to a friend
    who - now retired - was on the fringes of the Munster squad in the
    early part of the last decade. Having dealt with part of the coaching
    ticket as a coach now himself, he was of the opinion nothing at all has
    been changed or learnt in ten years. I'd believe that.
    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

    Comment


      #3

      Originally posted by Thomond78
      My view on our scrum coaching changed when I talked to a friend

      who - now retired - was on the fringes of the Munster squad in the

      early part of the last decade. Having dealt with part of the coaching

      ticket as a coach now himself, he was of the opinion nothing at all has

      been changed or learnt in ten years. I'd believe that.
      That's shocking if true. The dogs on the street know there have been issues for some time now.
      Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
      Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

      Comment


        #4


        My personal viewpoint is that Munster's weakness in the scrum - which has also been a weakness in the International setting - is down in no small measure to the looseness of the binding of the pack.


        If I watch smaller packs like the French in particular scrum their level of cohesion is tremendous which means they can destroy much larger packs and at the same time have greater levels of fitness and mobility.


        I don't know the level of emphasis on gym work in the Munster setting but Pat Howard in Leicester did tremendous things with the forwards - occassionally you well get a complete natural strength freak but in general professional players need to develop their strength tremendously in the gym and then go on to learn how to best use that around the park. It's not really much different to a pro boxer typically being able to exert 2x pressure of an untrained mans'punch. Many people here have mentioned that Flannery is an injury mess now but in his first international season he was IMO the best hooker on the planet.

        Comment


          #5

          Originally posted by parnell333

          My personal viewpoint is that Munster's weakness in the scrum - which has also been a weakness in the International setting - is down in no small measure to the looseness of the binding of the pack.


          If I watch smaller packs like the French in particular scrum their level of cohesion is tremendous which means they can destroy much larger packs and at the same time have greater levels of fitness and mobility.


          I don't know the level of emphasis on gym work in the Munster setting but Pat Howard in Leicester did tremendous things with the forwards - occassionally you well get a complete natural strength freak but in general professional players need to develop their strength tremendously in the gym and then go on to learn how to best use that around the park. It's not really much different to a pro boxer typically being able to exert 2x pressure of an untrained mans'punch. Many people here have mentioned that Flannery is an injury mess now but in his first international season he was IMO the best hooker on the planet.
          Hang on a minute. Accepting Munster players spend as much time in the gym lifting weights as any of their opponents, how long would it take to change scrummaging technique a wee bit to tighten the bind? 10 seconds? [img]smileys/confused.gif[/img]




          Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
          Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

          Comment


            #6
            Parnell, interesting you mention that. Friend of mine was at
            Loughborough, and would have practised as a hooker against Tigger
            teams. Apparently, the test for the bind was that he, as hooker, could
            break his bind while engaged, and crawl our backwards out of the
            scrum.

            Even anecdotally, we don't think about binding much here. Take
            thigh-binding by the second rows. I noticed this in pictures of Bok and
            Argentinean scrums, read up on it, and decided to presuade by team
            (J2, and a mix of a retirement home and a crèche...) to try it. Wow.
            Suddenly, we were so much tighter, the power kept on through the
            hit, no bounce, so much more solid in the row, all from a small
            change in binding by two players. Yet I'd never seen it, or seen it
            discussed, here.

            Mike Cron, btw, makes guys practice binding in boxing gloves so they
            find the strongest possible bind.
            Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Mebawsa Ritchie
              Originally posted by parnell333


              My personal viewpoint is that Munster's weakness in the scrum - which has also been a weakness in the International setting - is down in no small measure to the looseness of the binding of the pack.


              If I watch smaller packs like the French in particular scrum their level of cohesion is tremendous which means they can destroy much larger packs and at the same time have greater levels of fitness and mobility.


              I don't know the level of emphasis on gym work in the Munster setting but Pat Howard in Leicester did tremendous things with the forwards - occassionally you well get a complete natural strength freak but in general professional players need to develop their strength tremendously in the gym and then go on to learn how to best use that around the park. It's not really much different to a pro boxer typically being able to exert 2x pressure of an untrained mans'punch. Many people here have mentioned that Flannery is an injury mess now but in his first international season he was IMO the best hooker on the planet.

              Hang on a minute. Accepting Munster players spend as much time in the gym lifting weights as any of their opponents, how long would it take to change scrummaging technique a wee bit to tighten the bind? 10 seconds? [img]smileys/confused.gif[/img]




              Tighten the bind and scrum drill the s**t out of them so they act as a single unit all knowing exactly what they want to achieve with each scrum and a plan B in case it doesn't quite come off ? [img]smileys/wink.gif[/img]


              Quite a bit longer one would think - maybe 4 months intensively.

              Comment


                #8
                Refs have an agenda again us

                Comment


                  #9

                  Originally posted by parnell333
                  Originally posted by Mebawsa Ritchie
                  Originally posted by parnell333


                  My personal viewpoint is that Munster's weakness in the scrum - which has also been a weakness in the International setting - is down in no small measure to the looseness of the binding of the pack.


                  If I watch smaller packs like the French in particular scrum their level of cohesion is tremendous which means they can destroy much larger packs and at the same time have greater levels of fitness and mobility.


                  I don't know the level of emphasis on gym work in the Munster setting but Pat Howard in Leicester did tremendous things with the forwards - occassionally you well get a complete natural strength freak but in general professional players need to develop their strength tremendously in the gym and then go on to learn how to best use that around the park. It's not really much different to a pro boxer typically being able to exert 2x pressure of an untrained mans'punch. Many people here have mentioned that Flannery is an injury mess now but in his first international season he was IMO the best hooker on the planet.

                  Hang on a minute. Accepting Munster players spend as much time in the gym lifting weights as any of their opponents, how long would it take to change scrummaging technique a wee bit to tighten the bind? 10 seconds? [img]smileys/confused.gif[/img]




                  Tighten the bind and scrum drill the s**t out of them so they act as a single unit all knowing exactly what they want to achieve with each scrum and a plan B in case it doesn't quite come off ? [img]smileys/wink.gif[/img]


                  Quite a bit longer one would think - maybe 4 months intensively.
                  Ah now we are going places.

                  For how long has this scrummaging issue been known? 2 or more years I reckon. Why hasn't that sort of idea been acted on and implemented?
                  Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                  Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I know its an aside but didnt Craig Joubert (I think) get dropped from the international panel of ref's after letting Ireland away with murder against theArgentinan scrumin Nov. This match has come up a bit today as an example of what Buckley could do on a good day

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Because for most of those two years the scrum wasn't even
                      considered important enough to warrant a coach, MR?
                      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Munster never scrum as a unit. How often will our 6 and7 be mearly 'touching' the scrum to qualify for not breaking the bind, providing very little support to the front row

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by parnell333
                          My personal viewpoint is that Munster's weakness in the scrum - which has also been a weakness in the International setting - is down in no small measure to the looseness of the binding of the pack.


                          If I watch smaller packs like the French in particular scrum their level of cohesion is tremendous which means they can destroy much larger packs and at the same time have greater levels of fitness and mobility.


                          ...............

                          I totally agree with that. The Props are being blamed for others bad performance. Leamy,Wallace,Ronan and Quinnynever stay packed down instead they have their heads in the air out of the scrum and there is no power at the hit so the Props collapse against a tight powered pack. It is also noticeable if you see from a camera over the Munster scrum that the Props have big gaps with the hooker so they are not cohesive at the hit. The size of the Munster T/H Props particularly Hayes and Buckley does not help our cause. They need to be 4 - 6 inches shorter to get under the opposite number but it is not always a problem if they are relaxed and pack down low.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by joenah
                            I know its an aside but didnt Craig Joubert (I think)
                            get dropped from the international panel of ref's after letting Ireland
                            away with murder against the Argentinan scrum in Nov. This match
                            has come up a bit today as an example of what Buckley could do on a
                            good day
                            Craig Joubert reffed England-Italy last weekend, and will be reffing
                            another 6N game.

                            Mark Lawrence is, as of today's date, still on the IRB Referee Panel -
                            http://www.irb.com/mm/document/train...fficialpnl/02/ 04/04/
                            68/2040468_pdf.pdf

                            It's not too hard to check basic facts, is it?
                            Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                            Comment


                              #15

                              Originally posted by Thomond78
                              Because for most of those two years the scrum wasn't even

                              considered important enough to warrant a coach, MR?
                              Granted, and that was absolutely dreadful, but now we have one installed and seemingly there has been no improvement.

                              Are the great and the good at Munster Rugby blind or just stupid?




                              Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                              Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                              Comment

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