Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Where to from here?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by blueberry View Post

    Funnily enough, several people agreed and then set about proving the exact opposite - that inferior packs can still win matches.

    I would however agree with saying "The pack isn't good enough on their own. It's that simple."

    Our front row (when all fit and in decent form) is a match for almost anyone. We have the personnel in the 2nd row (if fit), and 2 first choice internationals in the back row. The only things we are missing are -
    • Ridiculous depth so form/injury aren't a concern (a la Leinster - but no one else has this kind of depth)
    • A natural 7 (but you can't have everything and we have a number of players who cover parts of the 7's role)
    At the end of the day, a better lineout maul turned out to be the primary difference between the sides in the semi. Leinster were clearly the far better drilled side in both maul attack and defence and made it count despite having less maul opportunities. Missing Killer, Snyman and Kleyn, I guess that's not surprising.

    Yes, we'd all like a Munster pack that terrifies the opposition, but it's not always realistic, and the current pack are better than most (age profile will become an issue, but for now . . . ).

    Strangely enough, I think we have the personnel we need in the backs too apart from 10 (JJ now seems miles behind both Sexton and Byrne much as I hate to say it), but we lack the cohesion that Leinster have. Their defence is suffocating, and they always appear to playing to the same playbook and are on the same wavelength. This is especially true on turnover or even quickly recycled ball.

    I'm going to see the glass as half full though. The addition of Allende and Snyman gave us most of what we need and normally they'd still be just bedding in. We may get Snyman back for the end of the coming season, and in the first Leinster game Farrell and Allende proved what they are capable of, and I expect them to get better (conditions were poor for a new partnership in the second game).

    We always want better, but our issues are definitely not just that the pack isn't good enough.
    The bolded bits are, for me, the kernel of the issue- we are, everywhere on the field good enough to beat everyone we meet (bar Leinster) during our 'regular' season, and those seeded higher than us in HCUP (usually one team, and for example we did OK against Exeter and then Sarries in the back to back fixtures). The problem is that when we come to what someone said was 'the pointy bit' of the season, we are continually and very obviously short. At that stage I do not think our pack is good enough, and players covering various parts of roles is a sticking plaster that is easy to prise off rather than a cure. Centres and back 3 are fine, but most of the other 10 players cannot match what we meet when medals are in the offing. Persisting playing the type of rugby which is enough to put most teams away will never be able to cope with the teams which are stronger.

    Comment


      A major part of the pack's problem is the extreme lack of passing; nobody is asking any of them to fling a 20 meter pass out wide from his off hand but a few short ones to change the point of attack wouldn't hurt. Stander easily sucks in defenders every time he touches the ball, some space has to be created when that happens. Get the ball to someone else. Same goes for the rest of the forwards. Pass the damn ball once in a while. These guys are professional athletes, they should be able to learn a relatively simple skill. It is easier to break the gain line when defenders can't gang up on you with zero fear of you moving or even offloading the ball in contact.

      Comment


        Some fantastic posts here. If leadership is an issue, if certain players seem beyond dropping and if there is an unwillingness from players to adapt to new coaching ideas leading to mistrust throughout the squad then is there a serious culture problem. Is that the case? I dont know if they are all issues but some of it exists I would say?
        \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
        \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

        Comment


          Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post
          A major part of the pack's problem is the extreme lack of passing; nobody is asking any of them to fling a 20 meter pass out wide from his off hand but a few short ones to change the point of attack wouldn't hurt. Stander easily sucks in defenders every time he touches the ball, some space has to be created when that happens. Get the ball to someone else. Same goes for the rest of the forwards. Pass the damn ball once in a while. These guys are professional athletes, they should be able to learn a relatively simple skill. It is easier to break the gain line when defenders can't gang up on you with zero fear of you moving or even offloading the ball in contact.
          this is defintely something Leinster do well. Toner is often used as a first reciever with out the back passes or a short tip on to a back coming on a loop or from depth. Furlong is also able to do this and so can Fardy. Its been a key feature of other successful teams as well especially in NZ
          The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad.
          - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)

          Comment


            I’m looking forward to the season getting started. It was strange to essentially drop into knock out rugby. We should now get a good chance to see these new systems and young players develop and being able to stop picking over the bones of the Leinster game.

            Comment


              Originally posted by blueberry View Post

              Funnily enough, several people agreed and then set about proving the exact opposite - that inferior packs can still win matches.

              I would however agree with saying "The pack isn't good enough on their own. It's that simple."

              Our front row (when all fit and in decent form) is a match for almost anyone. We have the personnel in the 2nd row (if fit), and 2 first choice internationals in the back row. The only things we are missing are -
              • Ridiculous depth so form/injury aren't a concern (a la Leinster - but no one else has this kind of depth)
              • A natural 7 (but you can't have everything and we have a number of players who cover parts of the 7's role)
              At the end of the day, a better lineout maul turned out to be the primary difference between the sides in the semi. Leinster were clearly the far better drilled side in both maul attack and defence and made it count despite having less maul opportunities. Missing Killer, Snyman and Kleyn, I guess that's not surprising.

              Yes, we'd all like a Munster pack that terrifies the opposition, but it's not always realistic, and the current pack are better than most (age profile will become an issue, but for now . . . ).

              Strangely enough, I think we have the personnel we need in the backs too apart from 10 (JJ now seems miles behind both Sexton and Byrne much as I hate to say it), but we lack the cohesion that Leinster have. Their defence is suffocating, and they always appear to playing to the same playbook and are on the same wavelength. This is especially true on turnover or even quickly recycled ball.

              I'm going to see the glass as half full though. The addition of Allende and Snyman gave us most of what we need and normally they'd still be just bedding in. We may get Snyman back for the end of the coming season, and in the first Leinster game Farrell and Allende proved what they are capable of, and I expect them to get better (conditions were poor for a new partnership in the second game).

              We always want better, but our issues are definitely not just that the pack isn't good enough.
              I agree. It's a curious thing but most of the skills previous posters say Munster lack, I see Munster demonstrate in almost every game they play. That's the reason why we get to semi finals. We win a lot more than we lose because we are better than most teams we paly. But when we're up against the top three clubs with all the advantages that they have in those semis, that's when we've come up short. And Munster aren't the only team to 'park the bus' when they know that their opponents are good enough to beat them man for man. Posters here were saying last season that in these knockout games that we need more quality on display across 10, 12 and lock. And it's still true because it's an undeniable fact that we haven't been able to put such a team out yet and see it last a game.

              More than new coaches, new players or a new gameplan, we need a little bit of luck, whether it's with warm-up or in-game injuries in crucial posiitons, group draws (Racing AND Sarries? and Edinburgh and Leinster sandwiched in between them!! FFS), even the weather (a fcuking storm blows up in our faces at home v Sarries when we were trying to attck in the second half to deny them a BP) or even a ref that gave us more the 10% of the 50-50 calls.

              What is it about lucky generals?
              Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

              Comment


                How many yards did our pack make against the Ladyboys? It was something ridiculously low.

                That's absolutely where our main issue is.
                Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                  How many yards did our pack make against the Ladyboys? It was something ridiculously low.

                  That's absolutely where our main issue is.
                  Very good point, but against to class opposition we will inevitably have far less opportunity to score, and even when we have hard won possession we are not as clinical in finishing off as others- obviously this is a concern beyond the pack.

                  Comment


                    How many times do you see it... Munster has got to give taleneted academy players the chance to shine and then keep them there when they play well.

                    Leicester and Freddie Steward. "Murphy said the England Under-20 international has "taken his chance". He is now first choice full-back.

                    Tongan superstar Telusa Veainu has previously held that role, but when he, along with four other team-mates, left under dramatic circumstances at the end of June in a contract dispute, that left the number 15 slot open.

                    "Potentially the impact of Covid-19, and the scenario we found ourselves in, sped up his growth curve, and gave him the opportunity to play," said Murphy.

                    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54179458
                    ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                    Originally Posted by mr chips
                    AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                      How many yards did our pack make against the Ladyboys? It was something ridiculously low.

                      That's absolutely where our main issue is.
                      Huge amount of grunt missing in that game

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Missing players.JPG
Views:	70
Size:	38.4 KB
ID:	2606371
                      "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                      Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                      Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

                        Huge amount of grunt missing in that game

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Missing players.JPG
Views:	70
Size:	38.4 KB
ID:	2606371
                        Absolutely, but we’ve had two of the three before and still come up well short.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

                          Huge amount of grunt missing in that game

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Missing players.JPG
Views:	70
Size:	38.4 KB
ID:	2606371
                          Furlong, Ryan, Leavy missing for Leinster to counter balance that.

                          When I watch Munster I know that Killer/CJ are there only good tight ball carriers but it is so easy to stop them as they won't tip the ball on, pass it before the line or even look to attack weak shoulders as they just try to run through people. None of Scannel, Archer, Kleyn, POM, JOD are dynamic carriers at all. Beirne could be dangerous but he isn't utilised correctly.

                          Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                          Comment


                            Munster play winter rugby while trophies are won in the summer months. Hoofing the ball into the air and trying to bosh forward inch by inch is grand in winter but don't expect to win any trophies once the ground hardens.


                            Glasgow and Scarlets absolutely schooled munster in recent finals because the rugby they were playing all season, while not as effective in the winter, it was a big advantage in the summer months. Connacht schooled leinster in 2016 by doing the same.


                            In the above examples the forwards were combining with backs to create space for all players to exploit. I think we tend to think that forwards need to be good ball carriers to be effective while in reality they can have other attacking attributes in attack. If there's no space its easy for modern defenders to shut down any ball carrier. KOB for instance is a nice passer and has been Munsters best attacking hooker of the last season despite not being a noted ball carrier.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

                              Huge amount of grunt missing in that game

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Missing players.JPG
Views:	70
Size:	38.4 KB
ID:	2606371
                              Kleyn is so manly his pubes sprout out of his collar.
                              I am the million man.

                              Comment


                                KOB for instance is a nice passer and has been Munsters best attacking hooker of the last season despite not being a noted ball carrier.

                                Would like to see KOB & Marshall share the game time to start this season. They are both dynamic in open play - Marshall was at one stage in the 2018/2019 season Munsters leading try scorer until injured if memory serves me correct.
                                Last edited by Greenkiwi; 17-September-2020, 15:02.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X