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    #91
    Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

    My understanding of the Limerick hurling academy is they work on specific skills in 6 week blocks, with a large number of young players from all clubs being coached by former players on each specific skill throughout the year. Hardly rocket science but whatever the cadets have or haven't been doing it's obviously not working in rugby terms. I know Munster have brought in a NZ'er to work on the skills underage, but I'd rather see the players combined in larger numbers earlier.


    It's not rocket science though. Players production isn't complicated. You need the largest possible population of potential players exposed to the best possible standard of coaching, and those two multiplied together produces your player pool.


    The challenge is in the fact that (in technology terms) we insist on using legacy systems (schools and clubs) to get this done.


    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



      It's not rocket science though. Players production isn't complicated. You need the largest possible population of potential players exposed to the best possible standard of coaching, and those two multiplied together produces your player pool.


      The challenge is in the fact that (in technology terms) we insist on using legacy systems (schools and clubs) to get this done.

      ...and maybe don't have enough technical support...

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
        If anyone could point out munsters next British and Irish Lion I would be thrilled.

        I can't even see Munsters next consistent international at the moment. Genuinely.

        The notion there's a Wally or Axel level backrower between the ages of what, say 19 and 22 right now in the setup? Who are they?

        We are just another club nowadays. Nothing special.
        Casey, perhaps. Daly certainly looks to have international potential too.

        We’ll see about our young up-and-coming forwards and OHs this coming season, hopefully. I think there’s some real quality there.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



          Exactly this. Connacht, Glasgow and Scarlets have all modelled a different approach in our league to good effect.


          It's not rocket science in my view, or even particularly modern. If you're getting done in the tight, move the ball, and keep it moving.
          I agree with you on this BB (for a welcome change ;)) , and i would add, if you're not winning the tight five contest it is hard to win a rugby match, but what you can (& should) do is move the ball to areas where you can contest & control better than your opposition. Most good sides do this through their middle 5s e.g. this was Schmidt's original Leinster template I.e. they couldn't outplay Paulie & Donners & the Munster tight 5 , but Rocky Elshom, SOB & Sexton, etc , could win the middle 5 battle grounds and then through some clever play& patterns they could create the space for their outside backs to convert, and this just about swung most contests for them.

          One of the issues with Munster now imho versus the likes of current Leinster & say Sarries, is that they lose the tight five battle and the middle 5 battles, and they're also trying to compete with really inefficient rugby( often executed badly) that is sapping for their own players which impacts other aspects of their game also. Munster need to change at least 2 of those 3 aspects of their play to compete better imho i.e. tight 5, middle 5 &/or execute a more efficient gameplan with a far greater accuracy.

          Munster of the 00s , managed all 3 of those tasks habitually over several years & hence became the force that they were over those years. This Munster squad are a full level below that side relatively speaking, and tbh it's looking like a massive challenge to get back anywhere near that level of competitiveness again....
          ____________________________________________
          Munster were great when they were Munster.

          alas they are just north munster now.......
          ____________________________________________

          Comment


            #95
            The pack isn't good enough. It's that simple.
            Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
            Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

            Comment


              #96
              When Tadhg Beirne played his most outstanding rugby for the Scarlets, it was either at 6 or 8. Why do we persist in playing an outstanding poacher, carrier and all round mayhem machine at lock reducing his abilities. JOD isn't a 7 as we can all see, he's a fantastic blindside with potential to grow into a test 8 if he had the opportunity to play there regularly. Our problem as young Sanchez bluntly points out is the pack - but playing excellent players out of position simply compounds the problem.
              Last edited by MOS; 16-September-2020, 09:43.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by MOS View Post
                . Why do we persist in playing an outstanding poacher, carrier and all round mayhem machine at lock reducing his abilities..
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                I am the million man.

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                  The pack isn't good enough. It's that simple.
                  100% correct, however the sad thing is that we still keep trying to overpower teams without any backup plan when it inevitably goes pear shaped at the pointy end of the competition. For years the all blacks have had an inferior pack to South Africa yet they regularly hand them their asses on a plate by playing smart skillful heads up rugby. We are limited to brainless one out runners running into brick walls all match long and then box kicking when we go nowhere.
                  When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by B.A. View Post

                    100% correct, however the sad thing is that we still keep trying to overpower teams without any backup plan when it inevitably goes pear shaped at the pointy end of the competition. For years the all blacks have had an inferior pack to South Africa yet they regularly hand them their asses on a plate by playing smart skillful heads up rugby. We are limited to brainless one out runners running into brick walls all match long and then box kicking when we go nowhere.
                    This is it in a nutshell. The pack definitely isn’t good enough to win things executing the current game plan in phase play — and probably won’t ever be — which is the crux of the debate. It’s up to the coaching team to find the game plan that suits the personnel the best. I don’t think our forward pack is/was any worse than the Connacht or Scarlets packs that won the pro12/14.

                    One thing the pack has provided in big games over the last few years is relatively solid set-piece ball, something our back line rarely seems to utilize well.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by MOS View Post
                      When Tadhg Beirne played his most outstanding rugby for the Scarlets, it was either at 6 or 8. Why do we persist in playing an outstanding poacher, carrier and all round mayhem machine at lock reducing his abilities. JOD isn't a 7 as we can all see, he's a fantastic blindside with potential to grow into a test 8 if he had the opportunity to play there regularly. Our problem as young Sanchez bluntly points out is the pack - but playing excellent players out of position simply compounds the problem.
                      We play him there because two of our 3 international forwards play 6 and 8.


                      Itoje doesn't struggle to cause mayhem from lock, and it shouldn't be a barrier for Beirne either imo.

                      Re: JOD, I think in hindsight we gave a lot of gametime to Botha that JOD should have benefitted from. He's four years older than Doris and a mile behind him.

                      Was POM 27 when he captained the Lions? If JOD is going to grow into a test anything, he'd need to get his finger out.


                      Overall though, I don't buy the "playing out of position" idea. The issue (particularly in attack) is the poverty of imagination in how our pack deploy.
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        Wonder if the dropping of Murray and putting Casey in against Scarlets would have the desired effect - send the frighteners through the squad and signal a speeding up and variation in the game.plan. Whilst wanting to avoid the Rob Penney tactic of predictability shifting the ball along the line - which is arguably worse than hoofing it up in the air continously - there has to be some sort of use of the backs to move down the field - that is presumably point 1 on Larkham's "to do" list. If you are going to do up and unders then there is some variety needed - Leinster actually do the odd up and unders in the oppostion 22 which can cause mayhem. It is not just 'heads up rugby' thats needed but 'looking the right way' rugby so that you only kick into space which is difficult to defend and ideally nobody defending it.

                        With Ulster looking a more dangerous attacking team than Munster, the new season needs to start with the new tactics (assuming the tactics are being finely honed as we speak) otherwise confidence will drain out of the squad and Munster will find themselves not just behind Leinster but also behind Ulster and with Connact breathing down their necks - whatever combos they put out at 2nd row or backrow or who they play as fullback.
                        Last edited by AdolphusGrigson; 16-September-2020, 13:35.
                        ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                        Originally Posted by mr chips
                        AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post
                          Wonder if the dropping of Murray and putting Casey in against Scarlets would have the desired effect - send the frighteners through the squad and signal a speeding up and variation in the game.plan. Whilst wanting to avoid the Rob Penney tactic of predictability shifting the ball along the line - which is arguably worse than hoofing it up in the air continously - there has to be some sort of use of the backs to move down the field - that is presumably point 1 on Larkham's "to do" list. If you are going to do up and unders then there is some variety needed - Leinster actually do the odd up and unders in the oppostion 22 which can cause mayhem. It is not just 'heads up rugby' thats needed but 'looking the right way' rugby so that you only kick into space which is difficult to defend and ideally nobody defending it.

                          With Ulster looking a more dangerous attacking team than Munster, the new season needs to start with the new tactics (assuming the tactics are being finely honed as we speak) otherwise confidence will drain out of the squad and Munster will find themselves not just behind Leinster but also behind Ulster and with Connact breathing down their necks - whatever combos they put out at 2nd row or backrow or who they play as fullback.
                          I think we have to identify who are likely to be our competitors for topping the group, and ensure we pick sides which are most likely to secure two wins. If we can beat them twice there is only a small likelihood of them catching us. It is essential these games when at home- that way we reduce the effect should we lose away. After that the emphasis must be on introducing younger players and new styles of play. As Scarlets were 3rd, and not a distant third, we probably should select a side which has minimal risk of losing- but as the likely next fixture is a must win Edinburgh at home, and so zero risk selection, and the Scarlets game is away, I'd take risks in the first up fixture, knowing that the strongest side will be selected the following week. I think it then comes down to 'what is a risky selection', and, given the opposition's strengths, which risks in which positions are greater than others- and how do we share the risk across positions- so pair Murray and Healy/Crowley, rather than Casey and Crowley. I'd be tempted to start Casey against Scarlets, because I want Murray to start against Edinburgh- after these fixtures, assuming its lower ranking opposition I'd be starting Casey with McCarthy on the bench.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                            I think we have to identify who are likely to be our competitors for topping the group, and ensure we pick sides which are most likely to secure two wins. If we can beat them twice there is only a small likelihood of them catching us. It is essential these games when at home- that way we reduce the effect should we lose away. After that the emphasis must be on introducing younger players and new styles of play. As Scarlets were 3rd, and not a distant third, we probably should select a side which has minimal risk of losing- but as the likely next fixture is a must win Edinburgh at home, and so zero risk selection, and the Scarlets game is away, I'd take risks in the first up fixture, knowing that the strongest side will be selected the following week. I think it then comes down to 'what is a risky selection', and, given the opposition's strengths, which risks in which positions are greater than others- and how do we share the risk across positions- so pair Murray and Healy/Crowley, rather than Casey and Crowley. I'd be tempted to start Casey against Scarlets, because I want Murray to start against Edinburgh- after these fixtures, assuming its lower ranking opposition I'd be starting Casey with McCarthy on the bench.
                            On reflection when Alby came on a sub for Murray he often played better (tiring teams I know) and probably should have started more games. If Casey starts against Scarlets and playes well - he should stay put.

                            Munster have brought in Haley and Gllagher at full back and had Daly under their noses - and just as Daly should not be dropped then neither should Casey, not becuase of 'development' but if he happens to be playing better. But probably an academic debate as Van the Manager - who may now feel under siege - may opt for safety.

                            I fear more of the same if Murray starts - if you are announcing a new quicker style - which I presume will appear at some point - then use the players who are most accustomed to it already i.e. Casey.

                            ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                            Originally Posted by mr chips
                            AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

                              On reflection when Alby came on a sub for Murray he often played better (tiring teams I know) and probably should have started more games. If Casey starts against Scarlets and playes well - he should stay put.

                              Munster have brought in Haley and Gllagher at full back and had Daly under their noses - and just as Daly should not be dropped then neither should Casey, not becuase of 'development' but if he happens to be playing better. But probably an academic debate as Van the Manager - who may now feel under siege - may opt for safety.

                              I fear more of the same if Murray starts - if you are announcing a new quicker style - which I presume will appear at some point - then use the players who are most accustomed to it already i.e. Casey.
                              I really don't like the idea of discouraging a guy who does well, and I'm assuming that players see starting as them having the edge (although obviously wasn't the case with our front row the other week), so maybe I'd be saying do well and you start, but the starting/bench pairing should be determined on the basis suggested above.

                              Daly did so well at wing last year that unless they didnt realise he could play FB (inconceivable?), I cannot see why Gallagher was brought in, Haley has been decent, and we already have plenty of cover, even if we want to avoid playing Conway there. Others have suggested it was an IRFU inspired move- and that might explain when he came- although I dont see how he will see much game time with Daly doing very well, Haley- who is generally fit- very clearly the man in possession of the 15 shirt last year, and a raft of other alternatives.

                              I'll be astonished if Gallagher doesnt get a run this weekend, but I'd have one of the younger alternatives on the bench. Those A-side selections will make very interesting reading, and I'd hope the style of play will also reflect the concerns so many on here have.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                                The pack isn't good enough. It's that simple.
                                Funnily enough, several people agreed and then set about proving the exact opposite - that inferior packs can still win matches.

                                I would however agree with saying "The pack isn't good enough on their own. It's that simple."

                                Our front row (when all fit and in decent form) is a match for almost anyone. We have the personnel in the 2nd row (if fit), and 2 first choice internationals in the back row. The only things we are missing are -
                                • Ridiculous depth so form/injury aren't a concern (a la Leinster - but no one else has this kind of depth)
                                • A natural 7 (but you can't have everything and we have a number of players who cover parts of the 7's role)
                                At the end of the day, a better lineout maul turned out to be the primary difference between the sides in the semi. Leinster were clearly the far better drilled side in both maul attack and defence and made it count despite having less maul opportunities. Missing Killer, Snyman and Kleyn, I guess that's not surprising.

                                Yes, we'd all like a Munster pack that terrifies the opposition, but it's not always realistic, and the current pack are better than most (age profile will become an issue, but for now . . . ).

                                Strangely enough, I think we have the personnel we need in the backs too apart from 10 (JJ now seems miles behind both Sexton and Byrne much as I hate to say it), but we lack the cohesion that Leinster have. Their defence is suffocating, and they always appear to playing to the same playbook and are on the same wavelength. This is especially true on turnover or even quickly recycled ball.

                                I'm going to see the glass as half full though. The addition of Allende and Snyman gave us most of what we need and normally they'd still be just bedding in. We may get Snyman back for the end of the coming season, and in the first Leinster game Farrell and Allende proved what they are capable of, and I expect them to get better (conditions were poor for a new partnership in the second game).

                                We always want better, but our issues are definitely not just that the pack isn't good enough.

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