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    #76
    If anyone could point out munsters next British and Irish Lion I would be thrilled.

    I can't even see Munsters next consistent international at the moment. Genuinely.

    The notion there's a Wally or Axel level backrower between the ages of what, say 19 and 22 right now in the setup? Who are they?

    We are just another club nowadays. Nothing special.
    I am the million man.

    Comment


      #77
      Alan Quinlan believes Thomas Ahern has the potential to be a British and Irish Lion.

      He was also the highest rated Irish player in Alex Shaw’s Top 50 under-20 rugby players.

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

        Already told you what I would do.

        I take your earlier point about the underage cadets etc but I am honestly dismayed by how few international players seem to be developed by the Munster underage system, again, particularly with reference to North Munster, especially when we can see what does happen when resources are targeted at specific schools. It seems strange to me that one school in Leinster can out-produce Munster in terms of international forwards in recent years. There's no real getting away from the fact that we used to produce way more international players than we currently are.
        North Munster has been challenged in lot other ways. We have to stop focusing on schools and concentrating resources on one school is missing the point.
        Some of those Leinster schools are professional in all but name. We cant do that. We cant replicate it. We have to work differently.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
          North Munster has been challenged in lot other ways. We have to stop focusing on schools and concentrating resources on one school is missing the point.
          Some of those Leinster schools are professional in all but name. We cant do that. We cant replicate it. We have to work differently.
          Missing the point of what? What we're doing now isn't working all that well either. In North Munster it isn't working at all. If Munster want to bring pro players through it should concentrate resources where they are most effective.
          It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

          Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

            Missing the point of what? What we're doing now isn't working all that well either. In North Munster it isn't working at all. If Munster want to bring pro players through it should concentrate resources where they are most effective.
            Its not how to improve coaching or will raise standards in North Munster. You dont do it to one school. You look at the overall picture. Focusing on one club/school is missing the point.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
              Its not how to improve coaching or will raise standards in North Munster. You dont do it to one school. You look at the overall picture. Focusing on one club/school is missing the point.
              Limerick hurlers did it via ASR, Leinster rugby did it via Michael's etc. Anyhow, as I said, I would have a skills Academy (same as the Limerick hurlers) for all the suitable players in North Munster (and one in South Munster too). Either way I hope we both agree the current set-up is way below what we should be aiming for.
              It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

              Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

                Limerick hurlers did it via ASR, Leinster rugby did it via Michael's etc. Anyhow, as I said, I would have a skills Academy (same as the Limerick hurlers) for all the suitable players in North Munster (and one in South Munster too). Either way I hope we both agree the current set-up is way below what we should be aiming for.
                Leinster didnt do it via Michaels. There is lots from Michaels in the current set up but Leinster have worked on all areas and didnt put in resources into Michaels who did it themselves.
                I dont think the comparison with hurling is fair either and you say skills academy. What exactly do you mean by that?

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                  Leinster didnt do it via Michaels. There is lots from Michaels in the current set up but Leinster have worked on all areas and didnt put in resources into Michaels who did it themselves.
                  I dont think the comparison with hurling is fair either and you say skills academy. What exactly do you mean by that?
                  My understanding of the Limerick hurling academy is they work on specific skills in 6 week blocks, with a large number of young players from all clubs being coached by former players on each specific skill throughout the year. Hardly rocket science but whatever the cadets have or haven't been doing it's obviously not working in rugby terms. I know Munster have brought in a NZ'er to work on the skills underage, but I'd rather see the players combined in larger numbers earlier.
                  It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

                  Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

                    My understanding of the Limerick hurling academy is they work on specific skills in 6 week blocks, with a large number of young players from all clubs being coached by former players on each specific skill throughout the year. Hardly rocket science but whatever the cadets have or haven't been doing it's obviously not working in rugby terms. I know Munster have brought in a NZ'er to work on the skills underage, but I'd rather see the players combined in larger numbers earlier.
                    Munster need to train the trainers more anyway. We dont need the Limerick hurling academy when we already have the structures in place in parts and just need to use them more/better.

                    Who do you get in then? Getting more players into a centralised Munster set up or them into the set up earlier isnt the solution. Getting club coaches to do more, coach them to have better habits/techniques is what should be done thru development staff etc.
                    The set ups we have in place are skills based workshops/training sessions.

                    We have Colm McMahon in place as head of development. He's in the role 8 months. Lets give him time to see what he can do in the role

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post




                      I had plenty of complaints home and away against Exeter. In fact, it was while lots of people were popping corks about our performance over there that I can remember getting really worried by our lack of cutting edge.


                      In what way does our team look well coached? We are only able to score points if our pack runs over the opposition pack. As soon as we're matched, we're clueless.


                      Is it a coincidence that this was also a feature of the Boks team that Van Graan was also involved with? The one that nearly buried the Boks reputation entirely?


                      Any coach who can't get De Allende and Farrell over the gain line shouldn't be coaching at Thomond, let alone at Thomond Park.

                      I believe that this approach is part of the overall problem. DeAllende and Farrell are massive men who rely on their size and power for much that they do. Getting over the gain line is a pretty poor objective per se. It may result in a gain of a metre or two but does not necessarily lead to the scoring of tries. Having big blokes blatter away all day in midfield is a limited and short sighted tactic. When you know it is coming it is not hard to defend. Henshaw/Ringrose were not much troubled in the recent Leinster game. Earls/Conway are probably the best pair of club wings in the Brit Isles but the Munster midfield seems poorly equipped to provide them with strike opportunities. Brawn rules over brain and the game is laden with one-dimensional centres. The day of the clever, probing, playmaking, tactically-aware midfielder with a bit of gas, footwork and passing skills seems to be over, unfortunately.


                      Erse end of nowhere

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post




                        I had plenty of complaints home and away against Exeter. In fact, it was while lots of people were popping corks about our performance over there that I can remember getting really worried by our lack of cutting edge.


                        In what way does our team look well coached? We are only able to score points if our pack runs over the opposition pack. As soon as we're matched, we're clueless.


                        Is it a coincidence that this was also a feature of the Boks team that Van Graan was also involved with? The one that nearly buried the Boks reputation entirely?


                        Any coach who can't get De Allende and Farrell over the gain line shouldn't be coaching at Thomond, let alone at Thomond Park.

                        Can somebody point me towards this team that gets the crap beat out of it and wins Heineken cups please? Were Saracens and Toulon using guile and cunning? I know the media narrative is moronic at best about Leinster but they steamrolled Ulster with one out carries off nine for about 5 minutes before executing any kind of strike before their first try. Who coaches this team? Is it Scott Robertson with the All Blacks pack playing in Super Rugby? Is he under contract or can we get him to Limerick tomorrow? Leo Cullen is getting a lot of praise for the line out coaching he does at Leinster (line out going great), maybe he’d be interested in making a step up to head coach?

                        hard agree that if De Allende and Farrell should be doing better at club level for Thomond, 0 metres made, 0 carries, sack the coach.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by toplaff View Post

                          Can somebody point me towards this team that gets the crap beat out of it and wins Heineken cups please? Were Saracens and Toulon using guile and cunning? I know the media narrative is moronic at best about Leinster but they steamrolled Ulster with one out carries off nine for about 5 minutes before executing any kind of strike before their first try. Who coaches this team? Is it Scott Robertson with the All Blacks pack playing in Super Rugby? Is he under contract or can we get him to Limerick tomorrow? Leo Cullen is getting a lot of praise for the line out coaching he does at Leinster (line out going great), maybe he’d be interested in making a step up to head coach?

                          hard agree that if De Allende and Farrell should be doing better at club level for Thomond, 0 metres made, 0 carries, sack the coach.


                          The teams (Scarlets/Connacht/Glasgow) without a dominant front-5, that have had any success over the last 5 years, didn’t repeatedly send single ball-carriers into double-man/triple-man tackles without some form of deception. If Connacht had repeatedly sent Loughney/Bealham/McCartney/Muldoon/McKeown into the Leinster defence as single carriers, they would have been destroyed physically in that pro14 final, in the same way we were against Leinster. Their strongest ball-carrier (Ultan Dillane) was standing on the wing in their version of the 2-4-2 attacking formation.

                          I’d agree on Toulon having a lack of guile, but Saracens over the last few years have had one of the most advanced, expansive attacking formations in Europe. They box-kick a lot in their own half, but they used a very advanced version of the 1-3-3-1 attacking formation in the opposition’s half. This is a good bit of analysis from Charlie Morgan showing their structure.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by highfield View Post
                            If Limerick wants to produce more players, they need to improve the quality of coaching. Schools and clubs need to encouraged to invest in good coaches from a young age. The model of Bandon RFC / Grammer shared coaching could work. Munster branch needs to do more to get club coaching to higher level and increase player numbers. I don't understand why development officers role is not full time coach training. Get as many level 5 coaches around the provences. Each development officer has ten clubs and a quota to raise the coaching standards.
                            I'll give you a parallel with soccer in the USA. For years the teams were coached by parents who didn't have a clue about the finer points of soccer but were enthusiastic. But in the late 90's early 00's travel clubs, the equivalent of clubs in Ireland, began paying coaches and insisted that coaches had to have USA Soccer/FIFA coaching badges and the standard of soccer player in the US has increased. Kids being priced out of the ability to play soccer is a different story

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by Mumhain View Post



                              The teams (Scarlets/Connacht/Glasgow) without a dominant front-5, that have had any success over the last 5 years, didn’t repeatedly send single ball-carriers into double-man/triple-man tackles without some form of deception. If Connacht had repeatedly sent Loughney/Bealham/McCartney/Muldoon/McKeown into the Leinster defence as single carriers, they would have been destroyed physically in that pro14 final, in the same way we were against Leinster. Their strongest ball-carrier (Ultan Dillane) was standing on the wing in their version of the 2-4-2 attacking formation.

                              I’d agree on Toulon having a lack of guile, but Saracens over the last few years have had one of the most advanced, expansive attacking formations in Europe. They box-kick a lot in their own half, but they used a very advanced version of the 1-3-3-1 attacking formation in the opposition’s half. This is a good bit of analysis from Charlie Morgan showing their structure.


                              Exactly this. Connacht, Glasgow and Scarlets have all modelled a different approach in our league to good effect.


                              It's not rocket science in my view, or even particularly modern. If you're getting done in the tight, move the ball, and keep it moving.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by Spiffy View Post
                                I believe that this approach is part of the overall problem. DeAllende and Farrell are massive men who rely on their size and power for much that they do. Getting over the gain line is a pretty poor objective per se. It may result in a gain of a metre or two but does not necessarily lead to the scoring of tries. Having big blokes blatter away all day in midfield is a limited and short sighted tactic. When you know it is coming it is not hard to defend. Henshaw/Ringrose were not much troubled in the recent Leinster game. Earls/Conway are probably the best pair of club wings in the Brit Isles but the Munster midfield seems poorly equipped to provide them with strike opportunities. Brawn rules over brain and the game is laden with one-dimensional centres. The day of the clever, probing, playmaking, tactically-aware midfielder with a bit of gas, footwork and passing skills seems to be over, unfortunately.

                                True, and I wouldn't want to hail that as an end in itself. But it's not even something we're trying very often. I don't understand why we don't have Earls or Conway coming into the line between 9 and 10 to hold defenders or provide a switch inside. I don't understand why Daly, with his gas and strength, isn't hitting pop ups off 12 or 13. I don't understand why none of our runners come from depth at pace ever, ever.


                                For me, it's fine to have De Allende batter it up (though I think he's capable of more). Knowing it's happening is one thing, but it still takes some stopping. The key for me is what's happening to his left and right as he's lining that up, and who else is doing what to either keep defenders guessing or to take a line off him and receive a pop.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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