Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Where to from here?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #61
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    No team that can't execute a strike move off a scrum or line out can be described as over achieving.
    Just to be clear, I agree with everything you've said on this. I just think the damage is far, far deeper than you are saying.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
      Well the composite clubs side in the schools dont need to play in the knock out games as the players will have the munster cup etc to play in after christmas. The pre christmas group games are good for extra games for some of those players. Add a second composite side and have two composite sides in the junior competition as well.
      Provincial income cant and shouldnt be directed towards one school. The money for michaels, bandon grammar and glenstal is all private money from past pupils, parents etc.
      There is regional set up already in place with cadets etc. Expand that and then and more importantly have coaches coached more on best practice and give clubs help in the areas they mightnt be able to compete with schools in terms of S&C etc
      Maybe so, but it's the best way to ensure a certain standard of player is produced for the professional Munster side, as the money spent elsewhere has shown.

      Why do you think North Munster have produced so few professional players in the last 2 decades?
      It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

      Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

        Maybe so, but it's the best way to ensure a certain standard of player is produced for the professional Munster side, as the money spent elsewhere has shown.

        Why do you think North Munster have produced so few professional players in the last 2 decades?
        I have no idea but mix of a wide variety of things. There is a huge increase in players coming from areas of the province that werent producing top level players back 2 decades ago. Limerick simply isnt with Cork city producing all the top players
        The number of AIL clubs from outside the cities has improved coaching standards etc and players are coming from these areas
        Provincial money cant go to one school. It has to go to coaches in all places.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



          That's an absolute straw man.

          It's notable at this point that no one is actually bother to mount a defence of what the guy is supposed to have achieved to date (bar hiring some people that we now hope will do the job he hasn't been doing).
          None of our coaches since Kidney have achieved anything at Munster.

          Perhaps there's lots of reasons for that but the one thing Kidney had as head coach, (apart from a Grand Slam winning pack of forwards and the best Irish 10 of his era) was time.

          I have no idea whether what's going on at the high performance centre is the depressing disaster you believe it to be it or a professional set up doing what it says on the tin. But I have seen the evidence of disruption caused by chopping and changing coaches every few years.The Penney/Axel and Axel/Locals years, by and large, were worse performance-wise and results wise than what went before or came since.

          Rassie put some shape on things and plotted a way out of the rut. Nucifora and Rassie, two experienced lads who knew what talent was available you'd agree, came up with Van Graan/Ferreira ticket. Gaps in quality which you among many others agreed needed to be addressed urgently- at lock, 10, 12 - were addressed, albeit not as quickly as we'd have liked.

          Our team looks well coached, (Gloucester away), until we meet the likes of Saracens or Leinster when we struggle against their power game. But when we beat Exeter, another team in that mould, at Thomond Park with the same very limited gameplan there were no complaints here. We 'dogged it out' in a no frills way -- and we did get close to a misfiring Leinster in that semi; maybe if we had taken 9points we missed, we might have made a better fist of the last quarter and got a result.

          Any coach at Munster has to deal with the limitations imposed by the IRFU and the market. But they also have to deal with the fact that Munster is not judged against just any pro rugby team, but against Leinster, probably the best resourced team in Europe over the decade. Any team, never mind any Irish team, is going to come up some way short in that comparison.

          If Leo Cullen is appointed Munster coach tomorrow, I'll still be a fan but I won't expect the most succesful Irish club coach ever to make much of a difference to where we are right now. The big problems are elsewhere IMHO.
          Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

          Comment


            #65
            https://www.the42.ie/munster-rugby-3-5204619-Sep2020/

            ​​​​​​MUNSTER HAVE ANNOUNCED that their head of athletic performance, Denis Logan, will depart the southern province.

            In a one-line statement contained within a squad update this evening, the club confirmed Logan and his family will be moving home to America at the end of October for personal reasons.

            Logan arrived at the province in May 2018 with significant experience already accrued in the world of American football, having previously worked with the Cleveland Browns NFL franchise.

            His departure leaves Munster with a vacancy in the role for the second time in as many years, as Logan himself replaced Aled Walters in 2018 after Walters joined Rassie Erasmus’ Springboks ticket.
            I am the million man.

            Comment


              #66
              Comparing squads and coaches is challenging. I think a better starting place might be around what makes a successful team - management, talent, strategy, finances, luck.

              There is no doubt Leinster have a larger playing pool and higher standard of school which helps. To me, Lancaster is a major part of the equation as well as the quality of players. That said, I think they have a number of average players who slot into the system like Kearney that they get the best out of.

              For me, too many players are not doing enough, our game plan is poor and our execution poorer. Is that players or is the coach? I'd like to see a coach who can create a buzz like Rassie that players clearly respond too. They seem to like Larkham at least.

              At the end of the day, against Leinster, we did not have one backline move. With a pretty good backline. We were unlucky with injuries and our pack were well beaten but we have some attacking platforms we should have done better with.




              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                I have no idea but mix of a wide variety of things. There is a huge increase in players coming from areas of the province that werent producing top level players back 2 decades ago. Limerick simply isnt with Cork city producing all the top players
                The number of AIL clubs from outside the cities has improved coaching standards etc and players are coming from these areas
                Provincial money cant go to one school. It has to go to coaches in all places.
                There is also a fairly large increase in ordinary enough players coming in from elsewhere. We used to be able to leave international forwards like MOD on the bench for Munster, now we can barely get a tight forward onto the Irish bench. That is a staggering collapse in standards.

                I think the "all" above is misplaced, in Limerick's case it could be replaced with "any" when talking about forwards. It's extraordinary that between all the schools and clubs in North Munster that last professional forward to get any number of International caps is Kilcoyne, who's in his 30's now. Can't recall in my limited memory of the amateur era when North Munster went so long with only producing one decent forward. And no one seems to be all that bothered by it in Munster rugby. It's all well and good praising West Cork and Waterford for supplying players, but it doesn't explain what has happened in North Munster.

                It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

                Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

                  There is also a fairly large increase in ordinary enough players coming in from elsewhere. We used to be able to leave international forwards like MOD on the bench for Munster, now we can barely get a tight forward onto the Irish bench. That is a staggering collapse in standards.

                  I think the "all" above is misplaced, in Limerick's case it could be replaced with "any" when talking about forwards. It's extraordinary that between all the schools and clubs in North Munster that last professional forward to get any number of International caps is Kilcoyne, who's in his 30's now. Can't recall in my limited memory of the amateur era when North Munster went so long with only producing one decent forward. And no one seems to be all that bothered by it in Munster rugby. It's all well and good praising West Cork and Waterford for supplying players, but it doesn't explain what has happened in North Munster.
                  I think its nonsense to say no body is bothered by it.
                  Waterford and West Cork and many other places producing players is excellent and reduces a reliance on the cities which is good. There is far more clubs outside of the cities playing higher levels so Limerick clubs dont necessarily have the pull they did before.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                    I think its nonsense to say no body is bothered by it.
                    Waterford and West Cork and many other places producing players is excellent and reduces a reliance on the cities which is good. There is far more clubs outside of the cities playing higher levels so Limerick clubs dont necessarily have the pull they did before.
                    Not sure it's to do with pull, our homegrown squad is noticeably weaker than it was a decade ago. I might be inclined to agree with you if the forwards coming from elsewhere were potential Lions etc, but are they, really?* Or has the standard of player being produced just dropped considerably?

                    *if they are, why can't they get into the worse Munster pack in two or three decades?
                    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

                    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

                      Not sure it's to do with pull, our homegrown squad is noticeably weaker than it was a decade ago. I might be inclined to agree with you if the forwards coming from elsewhere were potential Lions etc, but are they, really?* Or has the standard of player being produced just dropped considerably?

                      *if they are, why can't they get into the worse Munster pack in two or three decades?
                      For years the strength of the Limerick game was helped massively by loads coming into the city to play. So many areas have senior clubs now so players who would otherwise would go into the club game in Limerick are not.
                      What do you want to be done?


                      Comment


                        #71
                        If Limerick wants to produce more players, they need to improve the quality of coaching. Schools and clubs need to encouraged to invest in good coaches from a young age. The model of Bandon RFC / Grammer shared coaching could work. Munster branch needs to do more to get club coaching to higher level and increase player numbers. I don't understand why development officers role is not full time coach training. Get as many level 5 coaches around the provences. Each development officer has ten clubs and a quota to raise the coaching standards.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                          For years the strength of the Limerick game was helped massively by loads coming into the city to play. So many areas have senior clubs now so players who would otherwise would go into the club game in Limerick are not.
                          What do you want to be done?

                          Already told you what I would do.

                          I take your earlier point about the underage cadets etc but I am honestly dismayed by how few international players seem to be developed by the Munster underage system, again, particularly with reference to North Munster, especially when we can see what does happen when resources are targeted at specific schools. It seems strange to me that one school in Leinster can out-produce Munster in terms of international forwards in recent years. There's no real getting away from the fact that we used to produce way more international players than we currently are.
                          It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

                          Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Four tangible things that would be good to see from Munster in new pro14 season:


                            1. Consistent attacking shape in phase-play:
                            The pro14 teams that have overachieved in the last few years — Connacht in 2016 and Scarlets in 2017 — have generally had a set-in-stone attacking structure/formation that they used consistently throughout the competition. Connacht used the 2-4-2 attacking shape for the duration of that season, while Scarlets combined the 2-4-2 and the 1-3-3-1 formation, depending on the transition. Their attacking shape while facing the likes of Leinster/Munster was almost identical to when they were playing Zebre/Dragons in regular season pro14 games. This meant that they weren’t overly dependent on one/two high-profile players to deliver their game plans, as all players were comfortable playing the game plan. With this in mind, I would really like to see us approach the first regular season match with the same structure and formation in attacking phase play, that we plan on playing in the later games against Leinster.

                            2. Experimentation with strike plays in the pro14:
                            One of the good things about winning 5 pro14 home games by an average of 27 points is that you have plenty of room to make mistakes, without them being penalized too severely. We need to be going into the pro14 semi-finals with the experience/muscle memory of having implemented a collection of strike plays off the back of scrums/line-outs. The next time we have a big lead against a second-string Welsh/Scottish pro14 team, and have scrum dominance, it would be good to see us use pre-planned strike moves, instead of going for the pushover try.

                            3. Prioritization of elite academy talents and ruthlessness in backing them:
                            The top teams are absolutely ruthless in their talent identification and prioritization of guys that they feel can reach the top-level of the game. Leinster’s decisions around their locks is a good example of this, as they had a number of very solid locks performing well (Molony, Dunne and Oisín Dowling), but they parachuted in Ryan Baird ahead of them, despite the difference in age and experience between them. I’m hoping if Ahern performs well, JVG will do something similar with him, because as good as Wycherley and Coombes are, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say Ahern is probably in a different tier in terms of both physical and technical potential.

                            4. Playing to our strengths, but using variation:
                            We have one of the best box-kickers (Conor Murray) in world rugby, some of the most threatening offensive line-out jumpers ( Beirne, O’Mahony and Snyman) and a massive collective breakdown threat ( Beirne, O’Mahony, Stander, Cloete ). With that personnel, it makes sense to kick/box-kick, but as Murray Kinsella wrote and most people here wrote, it cannot be the entire game plan. At a certain point, when you have no threat of a wide running option, defences can put extra players in the back field — who either act as blockers or cover ground — reducing the chances of a positive outcome from the box-kicks. More variation in decision making regarding the run/kick options outside the opposition's 22, and slightly more deception in the set-up, has the potential to massively increase the effectiveness of our box-kicks.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by JoeyFantastic View Post

                              Just to be clear, I agree with everything you've said on this. I just think the damage is far, far deeper than you are saying.


                              Oh I agree that there are deep rooted issues in terms of production. We can wave it away with talk of a golden generation as if it just happened by accident, but the reality is that we produced a steady stream of talent for a long time. I can remember a particular week in that period when the starting scrum halves for Munster, Wasps and Tigers (at the time 3 of the strongest teams in Europe) were all Munster men.

                              If Limerick's output over the last 10 years had only kept pace with Cork's even we'd be in a radically different position.


                              My point re: the strike moves was just that, even with all those structural issues, I think there's a great deal more potential in the players that we actually have.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                                None of our coaches since Kidney have achieved anything at Munster.

                                Perhaps there's lots of reasons for that but the one thing Kidney had as head coach, (apart from a Grand Slam winning pack of forwards and the best Irish 10 of his era) was time.

                                I have no idea whether what's going on at the high performance centre is the depressing disaster you believe it to be it or a professional set up doing what it says on the tin. But I have seen the evidence of disruption caused by chopping and changing coaches every few years.The Penney/Axel and Axel/Locals years, by and large, were worse performance-wise and results wise than what went before or came since.

                                Rassie put some shape on things and plotted a way out of the rut. Nucifora and Rassie, two experienced lads who knew what talent was available you'd agree, came up with Van Graan/Ferreira ticket. Gaps in quality which you among many others agreed needed to be addressed urgently- at lock, 10, 12 - were addressed, albeit not as quickly as we'd have liked.

                                Our team looks well coached, (Gloucester away), until we meet the likes of Saracens or Leinster when we struggle against their power game. But when we beat Exeter, another team in that mould, at Thomond Park with the same very limited gameplan there were no complaints here. We 'dogged it out' in a no frills way -- and we did get close to a misfiring Leinster in that semi; maybe if we had taken 9points we missed, we might have made a better fist of the last quarter and got a result.

                                Any coach at Munster has to deal with the limitations imposed by the IRFU and the market. But they also have to deal with the fact that Munster is not judged against just any pro rugby team, but against Leinster, probably the best resourced team in Europe over the decade. Any team, never mind any Irish team, is going to come up some way short in that comparison.

                                If Leo Cullen is appointed Munster coach tomorrow, I'll still be a fan but I won't expect the most succesful Irish club coach ever to make much of a difference to where we are right now. The big problems are elsewhere IMHO.



                                I had plenty of complaints home and away against Exeter. In fact, it was while lots of people were popping corks about our performance over there that I can remember getting really worried by our lack of cutting edge.


                                In what way does our team look well coached? We are only able to score points if our pack runs over the opposition pack. As soon as we're matched, we're clueless.


                                Is it a coincidence that this was also a feature of the Boks team that Van Graan was also involved with? The one that nearly buried the Boks reputation entirely?


                                Any coach who can't get De Allende and Farrell over the gain line shouldn't be coaching at Thomond, let alone at Thomond Park.


                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X