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    #31
    Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post
    POM's central deal certainly isn't getting renewed with the intense backrow competition coming out of Leinster. If he wants to take a foreign payday i certainly wouldn't begrudge him.


    Aged 30 and as the Ireland incumbent he should be looking at another 2 years on a central contract. If he's not offered one it would be quite a notable statement. He's definitely under pressure from Doris, but the contracting isn't that reactive.


    It was only this year that Ryan moved onto a central contract, and Toner moved off one. Doris extended with Leinster in June, so even though he's clearly putting on pressure they're not competing for a central contract either.

    POM will have to hang onto his shirt for the 6N to get renewed, maybe...


    There's a crunch coming up though, I'd say. National and Provincial coffers have clearly been hit hard. O'Mahony, Stander and Earls are all out of contract next June. Earls will be 33 by then.

    At the same time, McGrath, Furlong, Henderson and Sexton (who'll be turning 36) will come up for renewal. Murray and Henshaw are signed up to 2022, Aki and Ryan until 2023.


    It's not going to be without its controversies, I'd say.
    Last edited by Balla Boy; 13-September-2020, 11:39.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
      If changing coaches won trophies we'd have won everything in the past decade.
      Any player coming through the Munster academy over the past decade would have worjed under three different coaching tickets by the time they made it to the senior team.
      Whereas a similar player at Leinster knew exactly what was expected of them down the track.

      The sheer numbers of players coming through at Leinster means that they could field at least three seriously competitive teams, two in blue and another in the colours of the other provinces.

      A key problem at Munster has been when we do bring through players it's in one's and twos. A single injury can really have an exaggerated effect on the squad, Johnny Holland is a prime example.
      We need more and better players coming through our system, that is the primary reason we cannot get beyond semi final standard.
      Pointing fingers at coaches would make sense if we had a team full of world beaters who couldn't manage to win, as we did in 2007 and possibly 2009, but that is definitely not our problem at the moment.
      Yes we all know that, but he failed to get us out of our HC group and couldn't finish above Edinburgh in the Pro 14 this season. Not good enough no matter what you say about players. That game against Edinburgh in Cork where we lost wasn't acceptable and lay the foundations for how the season panned out. It's all on JVG. We will find out what he has learned next season i suppose.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
        If changing coaches won trophies we'd have won everything in the past decade.
        Any player coming through the Munster academy over the past decade would have worjed under three different coaching tickets by the time they made it to the senior team.
        Whereas a similar player at Leinster knew exactly what was expected of them down the track.

        The sheer numbers of players coming through at Leinster means that they could field at least three seriously competitive teams, two in blue and another in the colours of the other provinces.

        A key problem at Munster has been when we do bring through players it's in one's and twos. A single injury can really have an exaggerated effect on the squad, Johnny Holland is a prime example.
        We need more and better players coming through our system, that is the primary reason we cannot get beyond semi final standard.
        Pointing fingers at coaches would make sense if we had a team full of world beaters who couldn't manage to win, as we did in 2007 and possibly 2009, but that is definitely not our problem at the moment.


        That's an absolute straw man. No one is arguing that changing coaches improves things in itself. They're arguing, I'm arguing, that we currently appear to be coached by someone who has had since late 2017 to show progress and has failed to do so. He's produced a team that appears to many onlookers to be low on ideas, low on self belief, low on leadership. Two of his best players have been underperforming for the bones of two seasons and he's been unable to change that.

        The issues and objections are very specific.


        We do need more and better players coming through, of course. Which makes me wonder why we still ended up in a position where in the absence of Kleyn and Snyman neither Wycherly nor Ahern had had enough road to be considered the pickable back ups at the Aviva.


        "Definitely not our problem at the moment" is a very big statement. Because I can see a coach who's never won anything as a head coach, last won anything as a unit coach a decade ago, who's spent knocking on for three years with a team that has gone nowhere, who hasn't overseen the emergence of a new international player in all the time he's been here and who took a team to Dublin that never at any point in the match looked like it believed it could win.



        And it's getting quite frustrating to see reams of quite haughty comment that says that objecting to that state of affairs shows some sort of ignorance, simplicity in outlook or "soccer fan responses" for simple measures.


        It's notable at this point that no one is actually bother to mount a defence of what the guy is supposed to have achieved to date (bar hiring some people that we now hope will do the job he hasn't been doing).
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          #34

          Just as a review of our dominant narratives over the last few years...


          Is it not the case that Munster did not want to lose Erasmus, who was broadly judged to have taken us from a team that had failed to get out of its group in Europe back into Semi Final contenders?


          We wanted to keep him and continue that progress.

          Van Graan arrived on his recommendation to take on that project.

          Two and a half years later, we're back to not making the last 8 in Europe, and being told that it was unreasonable to expect Van Graan to do anything in his first two years, and he'll definitely need a third season to show any sort of progress on the apparently near complete rebuild that it now seems was required when he arrived?




          The pack that Erasmus fielded against Scarlets in the final in 2017?


          Kilcoyne
          Scannell
          Ryan
          Holland
          D. Ryan
          O'Mahony
          O'Donnell
          Stander



          May 2017. More than three years ago.



          Rebuilding me bollix.





          Edit:

          Just to complete that comparison, our back division that day:


          Zebo
          Conway
          Saili
          Scannel
          Earls
          Bleyendaal
          Murray








          Last edited by Balla Boy; 13-September-2020, 12:29.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            #35
            The new emphases on side-entry and holding on at the breakdown affected Munster's strategy against Leinster. Those emphases, if not combined with a more severe reffing of the offside line, are going to have an ELV-like effect up north. Teams will not play rugby in their own half if the turnover odds are stacked so heavily in the defence's favour. In matches between sides with good poachers, it will just be kick tennis with box kicks used to try to isolate the catcher and win penalties, as Munster attempted against Leinster.

            The alternative to that strategy is to have the back five of the pack popping up out wide more often to ensure continuity and to get the ball away quickly. Have runners coming off a pivot so the defence can't crowd the ball carrier. Get the ball at least two passes wide of the breakdown to get a chance of running at the tight five in more space. All these things are predicated on the refs keeping teams onside and the forwards having the skills to execute passes on the gainline.

            I think the former strategy is the one Munster will go for. They have 3 or 4 good poachers and few forwards who are comfortable out wide.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
              The new emphases on side-entry and holding on at the breakdown affected Munster's strategy against Leinster. Those emphases, if not combined with a more severe reffing of the offside line, are going to have an ELV-like effect up north. Teams will not play rugby in their own half if the turnover odds are stacked so heavily in the defence's favour. In matches between sides with good poachers, it will just be kick tennis with box kicks used to try to isolate the catcher and win penalties, as Munster attempted against Leinster.

              The alternative to that strategy is to have the back five of the pack popping up out wide more often to ensure continuity and to get the ball away quickly. Have runners coming off a pivot so the defence can't crowd the ball carrier. Get the ball at least two passes wide of the breakdown to get a chance of running at the tight five in more space. All these things are predicated on the refs keeping teams onside and the forwards having the skills to execute passes on the gainline.

              I think the former strategy is the one Munster will go for. They have 3 or 4 good poachers and few forwards who are comfortable out wide.


              That will get us into the opposition 22, or thereabouts. But that's not somewhere that we struggle to get to now.


              We'll keep coming back to the same situation. We're on or about the opposition 22. Let's say Leinster, but any top team will do.

              They have 12/13 defenders on their feet, stretched across the pitch.

              We're onto our 2nd or 3rd phase for limited gain.



              It's at that point that most of our key games (and seasons) tend to grind to a halt.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                #37
                Targeting the ire at players, coaches, academy is all a bit moot imo. The last ten years we've been in how many semi finals and they've all gone the same - out muscled in all, out thought in most.

                I've read POM saying he's sick of losing semi finals and gone on to lose more. For my money the whole apparatus needs to acknowledge that what's gone before is not good enough and they need to change the setup from top to bottom to get over the line next time.

                The personel involved will not be changing but what the personel are willing or not willing to accept needs to change.

                This is going to sound daft, but at Leeds United's training ground there were two main pitches and between those pitches there was a mound of earth. When Marcelo Bielsa arrived he demanded the mound was removed, psychologically he didn't want his squad to think they had to get over a hill to train. He also demanded the derelict pool be refilled and operational to show that Leeds believed they were a top team and top teams have swimming pools. He had a blue line painted on the road from his flat to the ground so he could cycle to work without worrying about getting lost

                Is there that level of alteration and eeeeeking out those 1 percent gains happening for the last 4 or 5 years? Is there that burning hunger to level up? Are people demanding that from themselves or those around them?

                I haven't mentioned sackings, gameplan or player droppings once, my worries are more about our identity and what is non negotiable about Munster and how far are we drifting from that? That's the change I want to see.

                Sorry for the stream of consciousness waffle
                I am the million man.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                  Aged 30 and as the Ireland incumbent he should be looking at another 2 years on a central contract. If he's not offered one it would be quite a notable statement. He's definitely under pressure from Doris, but the contracting isn't that reactive.


                  It was only this year that Ryan moved onto a central contract, and Toner moved off one. Doris extended with Leinster in June, so even though he's clearly putting on pressure they're not competing for a central contract either.

                  POM will have to hang onto his shirt for the 6N to get renewed, maybe...


                  There's a crunch coming up though, I'd say. National and Provincial coffers have clearly been hit hard. O'Mahony, Stander and Earls are all out of contract next June. Earls will be 33 by then.

                  At the same time, McGrath, Furlong, Henderson and Sexton (who'll be turning 36) will come up for renewal. Murray and Henshaw are signed up to 2022, Aki and Ryan until 2023.


                  It's not going to be without its controversies, I'd say.
                  He isn't getting another 2 years on a central contract. His place has been under threat for far too long now and he hasn't really silenced the critics. Maybe this season will do that, but I don't know if it can. Not giving him another central contract wouldn't be reactive, it is realistic. Over 30 guys shouldn't get central deals unless they are far and away the best in their position in the country. If there is any doubt, the IRFU shouldn't do it. Keep them on a provincial deal for a good wage, but you cannot have them as the high earners. I don't think Earls is going to get renewed either.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    On the positive side, the talent in the academy has gone up a number of levels in the last few years. That cannot be by accident and must be down to years of youth development. If they can keep that up, expand on it and keep finding more Aherns, Crowleys, Hodnetts etc then the overall squad standard will rise.


                    Munster now look like Leinster in 2016 when there was a lot of academy talent but Matt O'Connor didn't use it. JVG is in MOC territory.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      O'Connor left in 2015

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                        He isn't getting another 2 years on a central contract. His place has been under threat for far too long now and he hasn't really silenced the critics. Maybe this season will do that, but I don't know if it can. Not giving him another central contract wouldn't be reactive, it is realistic. Over 30 guys shouldn't get central deals unless they are far and away the best in their position in the country. If there is any doubt, the IRFU shouldn't do it. Keep them on a provincial deal for a good wage, but you cannot have them as the high earners. I don't think Earls is going to get renewed either.


                        I'm not talking about what they should do though - just what actually happens.

                        For a 30 year old incumbent in the Irish team not to have their central contract renewed would be extremely unusual, whatever the critics say.

                        And his place hasn't been under threat. The hype train has been in motion, but that was it. I'd agree he's under pressure now, but again - that doesn't stop guys having central contracts renewed.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                          On the positive side, the talent in the academy has gone up a number of levels in the last few years. That cannot be by accident and must be down to years of youth development. If they can keep that up, expand on it and keep finding more Aherns, Crowleys, Hodnetts etc then the overall squad standard will rise.


                          Munster now look like Leinster in 2016 when there was a lot of academy talent but Matt O'Connor didn't use it. JVG is in MOC territory.


                          I really hope all of this converts, but we're talking up very big futures for guys who've played little or no senior rugby.


                          For reference, there isn't a single player in the current U20 set up who would have a better record on paper than Hanrahan had at that age.


                          The jump is huge.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                            Targeting the ire at players, coaches, academy is all a bit moot imo. The last ten years we've been in how many semi finals and they've all gone the same - out muscled in all, out thought in most.

                            I've read POM saying he's sick of losing semi finals and gone on to lose more. For my money the whole apparatus needs to acknowledge that what's gone before is not good enough and they need to change the setup from top to bottom to get over the line next time.

                            The personel involved will not be changing but what the personel are willing or not willing to accept needs to change.

                            This is going to sound daft, but at Leeds United's training ground there were two main pitches and between those pitches there was a mound of earth. When Marcelo Bielsa arrived he demanded the mound was removed, psychologically he didn't want his squad to think they had to get over a hill to train. He also demanded the derelict pool be refilled and operational to show that Leeds believed they were a top team and top teams have swimming pools. He had a blue line painted on the road from his flat to the ground so he could cycle to work without worrying about getting lost

                            Is there that level of alteration and eeeeeking out those 1 percent gains happening for the last 4 or 5 years? Is there that burning hunger to level up? Are people demanding that from themselves or those around them?

                            I haven't mentioned sackings, gameplan or player droppings once, my worries are more about our identity and what is non negotiable about Munster and how far are we drifting from that? That's the change I want to see.

                            Sorry for the stream of consciousness waffle


                            I don't think it's waffle. It touches on some of what was mentioned in other threads - there's a lack of buzz about this set up.

                            I know it's just anecdotal, but usually when there's momentum we hear about the sort of stuff you're talking about - new approaches, players talking about learning new things - just life signs.

                            When I listen to the likes of Heaslip talking about where Leinster are headed, the excitement is palpable. When I listen to ROG, DOC, Quinnie talk about Munster all I hear is a mix of bafflement and resignation.

                            I said at the end of last season that the improvement needed had to come from within. No one thought we had the budget to be bringing in world cup winners, and so the focus was always going to be on guys like Cronin, Ryan, Scannell, JOD, JJ etc finding that extra gear that would lift the level.

                            That should be happening in top class set ups.


                            Instead I'm looking at a set up where results have stagnated or gone backwards, the majority of established players have stagnated or gone backwards, there's no noise at all coming from anyone in the camp about what's being done differently, there's no one connected to the camp in the media saying anything in particular that's optimistic or excited, we're talking about our captain losing his Ireland contract at the age of 30 and about the best Irish scrum half of all time being past it at 31....


                            And we're being told we're headed in the right direction because of the potential of young players that the coach hasn't picked.


                            Last edited by Balla Boy; 13-September-2020, 16:19.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                              I'm not talking about what they should do though - just what actually happens.

                              For a 30 year old incumbent in the Irish team not to have their central contract renewed would be extremely unusual, whatever the critics say.

                              And his place hasn't been under threat. The hype train has been in motion, but that was it. I'd agree he's under pressure now, but again - that doesn't stop guys having central contracts renewed.
                              He's 31 this season; Doris was picked ahead of him to start this past 6N; I'd say his place is under serious threat.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                                He's 31 this season; Doris was picked ahead of him to start this past 6N; I'd say his place is under serious threat.


                                Doris was picked at 8.


                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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