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    #16
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


    Were they? You need carriers at lock and 12 to play any sort of game these days.


    The main issue for me is how we respond to losing those players. The 2nd row is a prime example. We have Ahern and Wycherley in need of game time. They should get it. Loads of it. That's no disrespect to Holland, but there's no longer any long term gain in playing him, imo. If Beirne is out, he may be there for leadership. But too often our default is to the "next best" option right now, even if we know that that "next best" isn't at a level that allows us to win things.


    I don't see much reason to be so sceptical about our current squad. We have young talent to blood at lock. We have two test class back rows, competition at 9, and top class units at centre and back three.

    That's not enough to win things, yet. But it's enough to go beyond the turgid mess we saw at the Aviva.



    The issue isnt that we dont have talent coming through, its that a glass ceiling exists in terms of it being given playing opportunities and not a lot of willingness from management to grow from within. If leadership within the team is the problem, then its leadership in name only and must be changed.
    Last edited by Jollygreengiant; 12-September-2020, 15:14.
    \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
    \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

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      #17
      Originally posted by Jollygreengiant View Post

      The issue isnt that we dont have talent coming through, its that a glass ceiling exists in terms of it being given playing opportunities and not a lot of willingness from management to grow from within. If leadership within the team is the problem, then its leadership in name only and must be changed.


      True, but unfortunately it's "all of the above", isn't it?

      We can put out who we like with that game plan and nothing will change. So we need the right game plan, players who can deliver it, and the internal culture that will make all of that happen.


      I'm happy to take CJ at his word when he says that he sees that potential. Let's hope it's visible to all of us soon.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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        #18
        Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
        If Munster want to win in Europe they need to sacrifice Europe this season and prioritise ensuring Knox, Salanoa, Ahern, Whycherly, o'Sullivan, Hodnett, Casey, Healy/Flannery, get a minimum of 15 appearances each with minimum of 10 starts.

        In terms of blaming coaches the same thing happened with McGahan, Penney, Foley etc. Listening to guys like Quinlan, Darcy, BOD, Kinsella, Jackman all saying that blaming the coaches is an easy out as it let's the leaders on the team off the hook by saying that they are incapable of either convincing the coach the plan won't work or of changing things on the pitch.

        For Munster to win Europe they need to at least have a team that you would pick more Munster players than Leinster in a combined team.
        If you picked a combined team currently the only Munster players likely to make a combined team would be Snyman, CJ, Murray and Earls with Killer, Beirne Farrell on the bench

        Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
        Good perspective there, one big issue is that most of the guys in the leadership group are the ones under performing ( and not just for province)

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          #19
          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



          "The coach isn't wrong. The players are wrong for not being able to get the coach to see he's wrong. Which he isn't. Or else the players are wrong for not ignoring the coach and just doing something else that would be right but that the coach, who isn't wrong, has told them not to do".
          That's not just a Munster problem, though. It showed up in 2019 when Schmidt's tactics became stale and he just refused ti change, yet nobody on the pitch stood up and said, "right lads, time to try something new", even simple things like having Stander, Ryan, etc stand further back to take the ball from Murray at some sort of pace to create more momentum to get over the gain line; like kicking in behind to turn teams who relay on creeping plus line speed to shut down a narrow attack; none of that was even tried against England twice in a row. Leinster are absolutely guilty of it as well; the difference is that their plan and tactics work against more teams. Saracens shut them down fast and they didn't fire a shot after 20 minutes, yet they kept doing what they were doing, to no avail.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

            You’re being a little over-dramatic here IMHO. We have more than 2 international starters and more again who are capable.

            Current starters: CJ, POM, Murray, Earls, De Allende.

            Have proven they’re up to the standard of starters: Conway, Kilcoyne, Snyman, Farrell

            That’s 9. Albeit two were injured the last few games. The likes of JOD, Casey and Daly have the potential to be in that group in the next year or two as well.

            On the other hand, the injuries we’ve suffered recently showed that the squad still needs a bit more depth and fresh blood at lock and in the back row, but I’m optimistic that’s improving in the shape of Wycherley, JOS, Coombes, Hodnett and Ahern. I’d back most of those lads to make substantial strides over the coming season.

            The real problems for me are 10, TH and the coaching ticket.

            JJ is a solid player, but he’s no ROG or Sexton. Carbery is so injury prone that I doubt we can rely on him. We have three talented youngsters (not to mention another two in Connacht and Ulster). It’s time to test them but it’s a big ask for any of them to step up to the level required quickly enough to give the current squad a genuine shot at a HEC in next next two seasons.

            Knox and Salanoa have promise too but, again, can they get to the level required quickly enough, if at all?

            The coaching ticket looks like it should have all the tools, but if we don’t see a dramatic change in game plan this season, combined with ruthless and progressive selection, it’s time for JVG (at least) to go.
            its would be drama if we won Europe a few years ago or even a recent pro 14. The fact is we have one limerick forward in our front row who is 31 despite having 6 senior ail clubs. We are nearly ten years trophyless. Also I think Pom Ireland position is under threat massively. Farrell will only get a look in if either henshaw or ringside is out. Conway maybe in for Earls long term but larmour and stockdale will take 2/3 back positions next 6 years. Murray is there by the skin of his teeth. A lot of people thought cooney should have got a chance at the start of the 6 n. What is good news though is that Saracens are no more and I still fear no one at tp. Get those young lads in. See what they can. Do.
            Last edited by BigLad; 12-September-2020, 17:15.

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              #21
              I think I read somewhere, perhaps Three Red Kings, that Munster have 25 players out of contract at the end of this season. A lot of lads will be playing for contracts this year. If that doesn’t produce results nothing will

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                #22
                They need to come up with long term strategies in terms of player selection/rotation and style of play, and they need to stick with them.


                The pro14 is the perfect place to develop players and new ways of playing especially against the weaker teams but to me it looks like JVG is a short termist who wants to win no matter what and that usually means physically bullying weaker packs. It's what Munster have been doing for years. Easy wins against 80 or 90 percent of teams but when playing the top 10% it has not worked in a long long time. To me that should be plan B, not plan A.


                Pick a strategy to beat the big boys and stick to it even when playing the small boys.


                Things like box kicking should be add ons and not the main style of play. There's nothing wrong with them in moderation.
                ​​​​​

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by barryfitz87 View Post
                  I think I read somewhere, perhaps Three Red Kings, that Munster have 25 players out of contract at the end of this season. A lot of lads will be playing for contracts this year. If that doesn’t produce results nothing will
                  Isnt 25 players out of contract normal enough at end of a season?

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Redcafe1 View Post

                    Good perspective there, one big issue is that most of the guys in the leadership group are the ones under performing ( and not just for province)
                    There lies the crux.
                    \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
                    \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                      Isnt 25 players out of contract normal enough at end of a season?
                      In a squad of 45 or so it seems like a lot to me. I don’t think we had that many this past season. I’m pretty sure Holland, TOD, POM, Earls, McCarthy & Cronin are all up as well as at least two of the hookers. Wootton too but he won’t be here to make his case

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Redcafe1 View Post

                        Good perspective there, one big issue is that most of the guys in the leadership group are the ones under performing ( and not just for province)
                        From a leadership perspective in Munster I would say Killer, CJ, Earls, Farrell are performing but POM and Murray aren't.

                        Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by barryfitz87 View Post

                          In a squad of 45 or so it seems like a lot to me. I don’t think we had that many this past season. I’m pretty sure Holland, TOD, POM, Earls, McCarthy & Cronin are all up as well as at least two of the hookers. Wootton too but he won’t be here to make his case
                          Maybe but majority of contracts are two years some will be three years so you can get years like this quite a bit where huge number contracts up at same time.

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                            #28
                            POM's central deal certainly isn't getting renewed with the intense backrow competition coming out of Leinster. If he wants to take a foreign payday i certainly wouldn't begrudge him.

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                              #29
                              Can't help but feel now that the season is over and looking back that the hiring of Van Graan was a mistake. Think we might have listened to Erasmus's advice a bit much more that maybe we should have. Learning on the job at a club like Munster just shouldn't be accepted. I should add i am not advocating for him to be sacked. I think he deserves one more season but at the same time i am not hopeful unless as others have said, that he bloods a lot of players and shows clear sigs of progress, because let's be serious, we are clearly going backwards this season. I honestly believe after seeing the impact Lancaster has had on Leinster, that we should go for him if JVG doesn't make progress next season. I always like the way he speaks about rugby, his philosophy and outlook on things in general is more in tune with Munster than the way JVG comes across.

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                                #30
                                If changing coaches won trophies we'd have won everything in the past decade.
                                Any player coming through the Munster academy over the past decade would have worjed under three different coaching tickets by the time they made it to the senior team.
                                Whereas a similar player at Leinster knew exactly what was expected of them down the track.

                                The sheer numbers of players coming through at Leinster means that they could field at least three seriously competitive teams, two in blue and another in the colours of the other provinces.

                                A key problem at Munster has been when we do bring through players it's in one's and twos. A single injury can really have an exaggerated effect on the squad, Johnny Holland is a prime example.
                                We need more and better players coming through our system, that is the primary reason we cannot get beyond semi final standard.
                                Pointing fingers at coaches would make sense if we had a team full of world beaters who couldn't manage to win, as we did in 2007 and possibly 2009, but that is definitely not our problem at the moment.
                                Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

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