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    Where to from here?

    In terms of cultural evolution, ethos development, standards elevation and performance consistency... The playing identity of Munster rugby in its current guise on the field is awful. We can start a new season and beat 90% of the teams in the pro 14 and delude ourselves into thinking we have evolved only to have our eyes painfully opened in the champions cup and knockout stages of the Pro 14. Im glad in a way management didnt come out to try and explain last weekends debacle as being a learning curve. Another omerta moment from JVG.Whether the transformation will be Barcelonaesque in terms of player change or purely superficial will dictate where the province goes in the medium term and for many years to come...
    Last edited by Jollygreengiant; 11-September-2020, 23:18.
    \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
    \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

    #2
    Rog was asked that question in a press conference after cp 09 and his response was. Home.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by BigLad View Post
      Rog was asked that question in a press conference after cp 09 and his response was. Home.
      In other news I just figured out a username
      Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

      Comment


        #4
        Well jolly to answer your question with a finer point. I would say that we have to reflect and make big selection calls.

        the last non super human team to win the hec was Leinster 2012. Since then Toulon and Saracen have dominated. Mainly because they had 11 to 13 internationals in their sides. Leinster are a new force with homegrown talent and a top class coaching ticket so well done to them. Even fla has said in a recent interview to win a hec you need 9 internationals starters. We have 2. We are never going to be a money bags club signing mercenaries like Toulon or Saracens. We need to promote our homegrown talent sprinkled with a niq signing or two. We just need to accelerate the likes of Knox and Ahern now. They deserve their chance. I’m sorry but Stephen archer. Billy holland. Tommy o donnell. Chris cloete. Niall scannell are never going to win us a pro 14 final let alone a hec. All fine upstanding gentlemen without question btw.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by BigLad View Post
          Well jolly to answer your question with a finer point. I would say that we have to reflect and make big selection calls.

          the last non super human team to win the hec was Leinster 2012. Since then Toulon and Saracen have dominated. Mainly because they had 11 to 13 internationals in their sides. Leinster are a new force with homegrown talent and a top class coaching ticket so well done to them. Even fla has said in a recent interview to win a hec you need 9 internationals starters. We have 2. We are never going to be a money bags club signing mercenaries like Toulon or Saracens. We need to promote our homegrown talent sprinkled with a niq signing or two. We just need to accelerate the likes of Knox and Ahern now. They deserve their chance. I’m sorry but Stephen archer. Billy holland. Tommy o donnell. Chris cloete. Niall scannell are never going to win us a pro 14 final let alone a hec. All fine upstanding gentlemen without question btw.
          Exactly what I thought but do the management have the cojones to do that. I feel Tom Marshall is far more dynamic than Niall and Rory being our out half cover isnt good enough either. The Leinster you have mentioned have blooded 3 out halves along with Sexton the last few seasons. Maybe the comparison is unfair with all the injuries we experienced there but out of crisis comes opportunity!!! I would add Jack O Donoghue to your list above.
          \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
          \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

          Comment


            #6


            Our squad management just isn't aggressive enough.

            The decision tree for me should be simple.


            Is our current incumbent in this shirt a test quality player?

            If not, do we have an emergent academy option who has the potential to be a test player?

            If we don't, do we have the budget and a route to acquiring that level of quality in that position?

            The incumbent should only end up holding onto the shirt if the answer to the 2nd and 3rd question is no, but it should be on the assumption that as soon as the answer is yes, they will be replaced.


            Munster should start the season with the declared and planned intent of having a test level front row this season. That's the benchmark. Anyone not there or on their way to that benchmark should be on a clock.

            We have the quality at lock - we need to play them.

            The same approach needs to be taken at 7. JOD is not a test open side and will never be a test openside, and should never wear the 7 shirt for Munster again, imo. He's a 6/8 and unless he can displace POM or Stander he's benching.

            Identifying an international level 7 has to be an absolute priority.


            We know the situation at 10. For my money, JJ would have until Christmas, rotating the emergent options off the bench. If by then he's not on course to be in the Ireland squad for the 6N 2022, he's dropped and the younger options are tested until we find who it is that can reach that level. If none of them can and Carbery's ills aren't fixable we go to the market.

            Centres are fine, but we have to keep working on depth. Back three is top class.


            So the long and the short of it is that between now and Christmas the coaches need to make it very clear where the standard is.

            Fielding a 1-5 with no regular, current internationals in it is (by the standards we aspire to) a crisis, and it needs to be managed as such.



            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

              Our squad management just isn't aggressive enough.

              The decision tree for me should be simple.


              Is our current incumbent in this shirt a test quality player?

              If not, do we have an emergent academy option who has the potential to be a test player?

              If we don't, do we have the budget and a route to acquiring that level of quality in that position?

              The incumbent should only end up holding onto the shirt if the answer to the 2nd and 3rd question is no, but it should be on the assumption that as soon as the answer is yes, they will be replaced.


              Munster should start the season with the declared and planned intent of having a test level front row this season. That's the benchmark. Anyone not there or on their way to that benchmark should be on a clock.

              We have the quality at lock - we need to play them.

              The same approach needs to be taken at 7. JOD is not a test open side and will never be a test openside, and should never wear the 7 shirt for Munster again, imo. He's a 6/8 and unless he can displace POM or Stander he's benching.

              Identifying an international level 7 has to be an absolute priority.


              We know the situation at 10. For my money, JJ would have until Christmas, rotating the emergent options off the bench. If by then he's not on course to be in the Ireland squad for the 6N 2022, he's dropped and the younger options are tested until we find who it is that can reach that level. If none of them can and Carbery's ills aren't fixable we go to the market.

              Centres are fine, but we have to keep working on depth. Back three is top class.


              So the long and the short of it is that between now and Christmas the coaches need to make it very clear where the standard is.

              Fielding a 1-5 with no regular, current internationals in it is (by the standards we aspire to) a crisis, and it needs to be managed as such.


              Fantastic post
              \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
              \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

              Comment


                #8
                The silly season has just ended and now we have another one.

                De Allende and Snyman were bought to play a Springbok power game. But with Snyman and Kleyn out, there doesn't look to be much chance of Munster producing that successfully. So they have to bring in some other monster or find another way to win. Financial pressures mean the first is unlikely and the second might be beyond the current squad. Doing more with less is generally unrealistic.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by BigLad View Post
                  Even fla has said in a recent interview to win a hec you need 9 internationals starters. We have 2. We are never going to be a money bags club signing mercenaries like Toulon or Saracens. We need to promote our homegrown talent sprinkled with a niq signing or two. We just need to accelerate the likes of Knox and Ahern now. They deserve their chance. I’m sorry but Stephen archer. Billy holland. Tommy o donnell. Chris cloete. Niall scannell are never going to win us a pro 14 final let alone a hec. All fine upstanding gentlemen without question btw.
                  You’re being a little over-dramatic here IMHO. We have more than 2 international starters and more again who are capable.

                  Current starters: CJ, POM, Murray, Earls, De Allende.

                  Have proven they’re up to the standard of starters: Conway, Kilcoyne, Snyman, Farrell

                  That’s 9. Albeit two were injured the last few games. The likes of JOD, Casey and Daly have the potential to be in that group in the next year or two as well.

                  On the other hand, the injuries we’ve suffered recently showed that the squad still needs a bit more depth and fresh blood at lock and in the back row, but I’m optimistic that’s improving in the shape of Wycherley, JOS, Coombes, Hodnett and Ahern. I’d back most of those lads to make substantial strides over the coming season.

                  The real problems for me are 10, TH and the coaching ticket.

                  JJ is a solid player, but he’s no ROG or Sexton. Carbery is so injury prone that I doubt we can rely on him. We have three talented youngsters (not to mention another two in Connacht and Ulster). It’s time to test them but it’s a big ask for any of them to step up to the level required quickly enough to give the current squad a genuine shot at a HEC in next next two seasons.

                  Knox and Salanoa have promise too but, again, can they get to the level required quickly enough, if at all?

                  The coaching ticket looks like it should have all the tools, but if we don’t see a dramatic change in game plan this season, combined with ruthless and progressive selection, it’s time for JVG (at least) to go.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
                    The silly season has just ended and now we have another one.

                    De Allende and Snyman were bought to play a Springbok power game. But with Snyman and Kleyn out, there doesn't look to be much chance of Munster producing that successfully. So they have to bring in some other monster or find another way to win. Financial pressures mean the first is unlikely and the second might be beyond the current squad. Doing more with less is generally unrealistic.

                    Were they? You need carriers at lock and 12 to play any sort of game these days.


                    The main issue for me is how we respond to losing those players. The 2nd row is a prime example. We have Ahern and Wycherley in need of game time. They should get it. Loads of it. That's no disrespect to Holland, but there's no longer any long term gain in playing him, imo. If Beirne is out, he may be there for leadership. But too often our default is to the "next best" option right now, even if we know that that "next best" isn't at a level that allows us to win things.


                    I don't see much reason to be so sceptical about our current squad. We have young talent to blood at lock. We have two test class back rows, competition at 9, and top class units at centre and back three.

                    That's not enough to win things, yet. But it's enough to go beyond the turgid mess we saw at the Aviva.




                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think Snyman and De Allende were brought in because they bring both power and good hands. We need players like that to play a more complete and varied attacking game, and I think that’s the ambition.

                      The weird thing is, when the chips are down, we’re still not even trying to do so on the field.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If Munster want to win in Europe they need to sacrifice Europe this season and prioritise ensuring Knox, Salanoa, Ahern, Whycherly, o'Sullivan, Hodnett, Casey, Healy/Flannery, get a minimum of 15 appearances each with minimum of 10 starts.

                        In terms of blaming coaches the same thing happened with McGahan, Penney, Foley etc. Listening to guys like Quinlan, Darcy, BOD, Kinsella, Jackman all saying that blaming the coaches is an easy out as it let's the leaders on the team off the hook by saying that they are incapable of either convincing the coach the plan won't work or of changing things on the pitch.

                        For Munster to win Europe they need to at least have a team that you would pick more Munster players than Leinster in a combined team.
                        If you picked a combined team currently the only Munster players likely to make a combined team would be Snyman, CJ, Murray and Earls with Killer, Beirne Farrell on the bench

                        Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
                          The silly season has just ended and now we have another one.

                          De Allende and Snyman were bought to play a Springbok power game. But with Snyman and Kleyn out, there doesn't look to be much chance of Munster producing that successfully. So they have to bring in some other monster or find another way to win. Financial pressures mean the first is unlikely and the second might be beyond the current squad. Doing more with less is generally unrealistic.
                          Not talking about signing players. That panacea can only work if all other areas are in place.
                          \"If you can dream it, you can do it\".
                          \"To the cowardly and unfaithful, nothing is possible\"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                            In terms of blaming coaches the same thing happened with McGahan, Penney, Foley etc. Listening to guys like Quinlan, Darcy, BOD, Kinsella, Jackman all saying that blaming the coaches is an easy out as it let's the leaders on the team off the hook by saying that they are incapable of either convincing the coach the plan won't work or of changing things on the pitch.




                            "The coach isn't wrong. The players are wrong for not being able to get the coach to see he's wrong. Which he isn't. Or else the players are wrong for not ignoring the coach and just doing something else that would be right but that the coach, who isn't wrong, has told them not to do".

                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Change, hopefully.

                              I've seen enough of the same long enough now to feel change is needed. The who's and what's will fall into place.

                              The idea of more of the same would disappoint me. We have to see change to see progress.
                              I am the million man.

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