Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

P14 Semi final) Munster and Leinster. Friday 19.35

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    They have now lost ten out of ten in nine seasons, five in Europe, five in the PRO12-14,
    Wait, is he counting only semi-final losses and ignoring the final against Scarlets so that he can say 10 out of 10?? Like, what is going on there? Is fact checking not a thing? What am i missing? Isn't this akin to saying leinster are 4 out of 4 in European finals that they've won?? I get the point, but it's terrible writing and there's enough for these doses to sink their teeth into without distorting the reality of what has happened in the past.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


      I think Killer would push Horan, but Horan would take the shirt. Stander and O'Mahony are at that level. That's about it.

      But it's not the standard as such, for me. We can see the weaknesses. It's the willingness to implement and pursue a game plan that we know is going to fail, and the lack of any apparent fall out from such losses.


      If we were a developing team going out all guns blazing I wouldn't be feeling nearly as uncomfortable. I'm really unsettled by the impression that we're willing to settle for respectable losses against top opposition.
      Interestingly enough with the exception of out half. 9 11 12 13 14 and 15 of the current team would make the 2006 2008 team imo.



      sorry well 06 anyway. Dougie would be ahead of earls
      Last edited by BigLad; 5-September-2020, 14:17.

      Comment


        Originally posted by BigLad View Post

        Interestingly enough with the exception of out half. 9 11 12 13 14 and 15 of the current team would make the 2006 2008 team imo.

        Hmmm...

        Conway to full back to have Howlett on the wing. Earls on the other.

        I think our current centres are potentially great, but it's such early days and the idea of a Halstead/Tipoki combination is too good to pass up (as long as they have 2 knees each).

        But they're narrow calls I think.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

          I don’t think JJ ‘blows hot or cold” - over the past year he has been very consistent- in his earlier days his play ranged from magic to muck, but the he now performs reliably in the zone between the two extremes- and overall that is an improvement for him. The problem is we need him to up his level and cut out the errors- we need that person who the opposition are worried about what he capable of, and, regrettably for him and us, he just doesn’t seem to be. Secure in the big moments just doesn’t seem to be him.

          With regard to Frawley, I understand where you are coming from, but we need to aspire to more than building our game around the 4th choice Leinster 10- one of our own young lads needs to be capable of overtaking Jonny and the Byrnes- and the guy(s) who promise that possibility need to be given the game time and support to enable them to get there. If that calibre Isn’t in house, then we need to seek it elsewhere in the world- if you’re not good enough to start for Leinster- then you shouldn’t be expecting to start for us.
          Carbery wasn't going to take Sexton's spot, and Ross Byrne was preferred as the backup, yet he is clearly Munster's first choice 10. Some players just have to move to get a real chance. Conway couldn't get game time, now he's one of the best wingers in Ireland.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
            FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 04, 2020 - 22:55 PM
            PETER JACKSON

            Guinness PRO14 semi-final: Leinster 13 Munster 3

            For whole regiments of the immobilised Red Army stranded near and far, Johann van Graan’s rhetorical question before kick-off would have sounded a bit ominous:

            "Who knows what can happen in 80 minutes?" asked Munster’s South African head coach, as if giving the gods a gentle reminder that it was high time they got round to applying one of life’s more ancient laws, the one about averages averaging out.

            Some of those confined to barracks on both sides of the Irish Sea by the pandemic might have managed to give it a similarly positive spin, that maybe the tide of history really was about to change and not before time.

            When used in the context of Munster on knockout business in Dublin, the theory about who knows what will happen simply doesn’t apply. Those who follow the fortunes of Ireland’s two biggest rugby tribes know only too well what will happen and it duly happened again last night when the skies wept as if sympathy for a fixture which will have cost the Irish game millions more in lost revenue.

            A deserted stadium added to the emptiness of the occasion, an all too familiar emotion for Munster and semi-finals. They have now lost ten out of ten in nine seasons, five in Europe, five in the PRO12-14, a losing streak made all the harder to bear given that Leinster have now reached their tenth final in eleven seasons.

            What makes it even worse from a Munster perspective, if that’s possible, is that Leinster made it without being required to do anything out of the ordinary. For all the extraordinary nature of their squad and the embarrassment of riches in every position, the champions showed last night they can always match the occasion.

            Leinster can win ugly with the best of them when the conditions and the opposition demands, a mood in keeping with a forgettable match. Their relatively comfortable passage into a third successive final exposed Munster’s chronic lack of creativity.

            It raised some serious questions. What’s the point of controlling most of the first half and turning round four points behind? Conor Murray’s box-kicking may have troubled Leinster a fortnight earlier but why persist with kicking possession away?

            All but one of his kicks during the first half ended up in Leinster hands. Damian de Allende talked about his new team’s having all the credentials to win the big matches at home and in Europe only to discover that winning a World Cup against England in Japan is infinitely less difficult than trying to knock Leinster out in Dublin.

            When the Springbok centre threatened to unhinge Leinster’s midfield, who should hold him up in the tackle and force the turn-over but none other than Johnny Sexton, his relish for the physical part of the job undimmed by the passing years.

            Leinster didn’t create much either but then they didn’t have to do. They got the only try, one questionable enough to have warranted forensic examination by the TMO, Brian McNeece. His verdict in referee Andrew Brace’s ear sounded less than decisive: ‘’There’s not enough evidence to overrule your decision.’’ Ronan Kelleher got the benefit of the doubt and Munster will have been further peeved by the penalty which allowed Sexton to widen the lead to seven points. Some heroic work by Shane Daly counted for nothing and it was hardly O’Mahony’s fault that he found himself trapped into conceding the kick at the next break-down.

            Munster had further cause to feel hard-done-by when Andrew Porter obstructed Murray going for a high ball. Leinster’s tighthead got away with conceding nothing more than a penalty when a stricter referee would have binned him for a deliberate foul.

            Two minutes before that incident JJ Hanrahan missed a shot at goal. Two minutes after it, the same player, winner of the Golden Boot, missed another from straight in front. Sexton promptly showed him how it was done and from possibly being one point behind, Munster were ten behind and beyond redemption.

            It would be stretching a point to say Sexton ran the show because there really wasn’t one. Nobody has ever questioned Munster’s desire as typified by Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander and yet they will know that it takes more to outpoint a team smart enough to see Saracens off in their next semi-final, at the same venue in a fortnight’s time.

            Munster will be resting for the new season, the old one having dribbled down the drain. Beating Leinster in the capital remains as far beyond their reach as it’s ever been.
            That is just poor reporting. Munster made the pro12 finals in 2015 and 2017, so the "losing semi-finals for a decade straight" isn't accurate. Not saying that what is going on is good, but a journalist should at least get the facts correct.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Redcafe1 View Post

              Extremely poor game plan, so predictable now.
              when we played 2 weeks ago - 3 areas where we we successful were all addressed by Leinster coaches 1. Poor under high kick 2. Poor lineout and 3 The breakdown. We should have known they were going to rectify those.
              Some of our senior players have not performed for province or indeed country for a long time now , yet are always selected. We are easy to defend against as we have one ball carrying forward - far too much focus on the defending aspects of our forward play ( poaching ).
              The likes of JOS, Hodnett, Coombes , our young 10’s, Casey , Knox all need to given proper opportunities now.
              Doris was MOTM last night - he is 22.
              Give youth its chance
              I thought they got MOTM wrong personally. Thought Connors had a fine game and did what he was selected for, stopping Stander at source. He did that very well & in chopping Stander down he eliminated any Muster momentum in the tight carries. When there was no way forward for CJ the Munster heads seemed to drop. Don't think it was as bad a quality game as some posts say. Really tight arm wrestle. Few teams will limit this Leinster side to just one try scoring opportunity

              Comment


                Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post

                I thought they got MOTM wrong personally. Thought Connors had a fine game and did what he was selected for, stopping Stander at source. He did that very well & in chopping Stander down he eliminated any Muster momentum in the tight carries. When there was no way forward for CJ the Munster heads seemed to drop. Don't think it was as bad a quality game as some posts say. Really tight arm wrestle. Few teams will limit this Leinster side to just one try scoring opportunity
                Baising the poorness of the game on the number of mistakes, amount of creativity and lack of continuity of both sides - it was pishpoor.

                If you are judging poorness on good defences were and how hard and physical a contest it was - then not poor at all.
                Last edited by AdolphusGrigson; 5-September-2020, 15:13.
                ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                Originally Posted by mr chips
                AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                Comment


                  Just watching a bit of premiership rugby and harlequins who we would all view as inferior to us can make a break in to the 22 and with three fast passes in 3 seconds can be inches from a try line. Surely with our back line and our larkham we could do this.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                    Carbery wasn't going to take Sexton's spot, and Ross Byrne was preferred as the backup, yet he is clearly Munster's first choice 10. Some players just have to move to get a real chance. Conway couldn't get game time, now he's one of the best wingers in Ireland.
                    Sure- I agree that Conway has certainly come to the fore- but it has taken a while for him to do so. It’s far harder to say the same with any confidence about Joey- now while that may be the fault of injury- it remains to be seen whether he can be better than what Leinster have starting.

                    Comment


                      The poorness of the attacking play against Connacht - even when they were down to 13 was alarming.- and Rowntree's comment that they were keeping a few tricks up their sleeve now looks like no more than a self serving sound bite.

                      Whilst I wouldnt judge Rowntree on his verbals (and remain optimistic about his on field contributions), that alleged porky aside, he does like to trot out the usual old reliable chestnuts for the meeja who seem to lap it up.




                      ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                      Originally Posted by mr chips
                      AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                      Comment


                        Well that was an absolutely shocking game. Both sides were brutal but Munster thankfully were worse than us.

                        A few comments on what has been said here post game:
                        Blaming JVG for a poor performance and tactics (most of the people doing that say Cullen has no impact on Leinster and it is all Lancaster). For the last 10 years it is always the coaches fault rather than the players. Maybe if the "world class" Munster players such as POM, Earls, Conway delivered in these big games they would have a better chance (CJ always delivers but is too easily negated as a ball carrier because of lack of other options and a distinct lack of footwork and offloading in his game.
                        Blaming the 5 day turnaround. Most people were saying it would have Munster battle hardened and you couldn't afford to rest guys like CJ against a reserve Connacht team.
                        Blaming injuries in the pack. Yes they contributed to Munster struggling but Leinster were also without Furlong, Ryan and Leavy in the pack which evened things out.

                        People go on about Leinster depth but the main reason is that we are prepared to play players far easier than Munster. Unless Munster start playing their youth they will end up with overplayed senior players and young guys without experience. Being brutally honest Munster will not win Europe next year and their best approach has to be playing guys like Healy, Flannery, Casey, Hodnett, O'Sullivan, Ahern, Knox, Salanoa, Coombes etc 15-20 times each next year split between starting and benching. If you look at Leinster very few players play 20 games if even a season. The guys winning week in week out in Pro 14 are the guys like Peter Dooley, Ed Byrne, Michael Bent, Maloney, Josh Murphy, Deegan, Ross Byrne etc. There is no reason why Munster can't win most games using their squad.

                        Looking at Munster they tend to only have 3 or maybe 4 ball carriers in the pack (Killer, Snyman, CJ and Beirne)at most which means its easier to defend against and harder to get quick ball especially when Killer/CJ just look for contact. If you look at yesterday's Leinster pack only Toner and Connors are poor ball carriers but Toner is comfortable tipping the ball on to another carrier when required.

                        The biggest question for Munster now is: Do you want to keep doing what you have done for 10 years and be content making semifinals with approx a 20-25% chance of winning or else do something different which will have short term pain for potential long term gain. Somethings that Munster should do from the start of next season are:
                        Start Casey at SH for at least 5-6 games with JJ as they will probably work better together.
                        Pick your best young OH and pair him with Murray off the bench for the same length of time.
                        Put CJ at 6 with Hodnett at 7 and Beirne at 8. Beirne gives greater pace off the scrum, has an offload and uses footwork at the line. You have to have a minimum of 2 carriers in the backrow so POM/Cloete can't play together.
                        Whycherly, Ahern, Holland to alternate until Kleyn is back. At least one of Knox and Salanoa have to be in every match day squad

                        Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                          Pleased with the win from a Leinster perspective. Ugly, ugly match. Munster appeared to lack a plan b when the box kicking didn’t work. I thought Daly looked good for you guys and I’d worry about the centre partnership because the inability to get the ball wide with two good wingers will come back to haunt you. Lots of sides have lost worse to the Leinster side so chins up and look forward to next season.
                          "They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster

                          Comment


                            Very disappointing really. Munster were outgunned in nearly every aspect of play versus Leinster from what I could see, e g. lineouts, rucks, penalties converted & chances taken.

                            Munster's game is very inefficient & puts too high a physical load on our own forwards (especially) imho, and this ain't helping unit skills (set pieces) under pressure either. I believe we have the skills outside 9, to play a more varied and smarter game even against the likes of Leinster, as was evident 2 weeks ago. The Munster players & coaches should know this themselves in fairness, they need to adapt. Behind the pack, varying box kicking, multiple forward runner options, and slick hands with outside grubbers into space as well as the fundamentals of winning all of your own set pieces, and taking your chances when presented, is the game Munster need to be evolving to imho.....

                            That's not easy against the likes of Leinster but that is what's required imho
                            ____________________________________________
                            Munster were great when they were Munster.

                            alas they are just north munster now.......
                            ____________________________________________

                            Comment


                              Having reflected on the game. What happened last night really wasn’t a shock. Truth is it became clear very early on, that it was the same old problem. Our front 5 isn’t good enough. They don’t have the physicality to break the line of a Leinster or a Saracens. Forwards win games. Especially in slippy conditions last night. The loss Klyen & Killer, our ball carriers in the recent past, plus Synman who looked like a beast and surely would of fit into that mould. Knowing this, Leinster knew we’re either going to kick or try to go out wide. Every time we went wide, Leinster were able to defend wider knowing we weren’t going to go through them, and using a high pressure defence were able to drive us back. Reality was when we went wide we lost ground. And ended up box kicking. All very predictable in the end. And until we can match that physicality nothing is going to change. Guys like Holland, Loughman, Archer, Ryan just aren’t going to match that level.

                              Also anyone think Cronin looked really out of shape?

                              Hate naming players, all great pros but if we’re going to reach the next level we need bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic tight 5 forwards who can break the line and put better sides under real pressure, that can actually make sides defend more narrow and create that space elsewhere.
                              Last edited by KerryRed; 5-September-2020, 16:29.
                              "The PRO12 is our domestic league, it's what you earn your bread and butter from; it's what pays the bills. We need to broaden our emphasis and get an understanding in Irish rugby that the domestic league from now on is most important and that's what qualifies you now for Europe.'' Garrett Fitzgerald, CEO Munster

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by KerryRed View Post
                                Having reflected on the game. What happened last night really wasn’t a shock. Truth is it became clear very early on, that it was the same old problem. Our front 5 isn’t good enough. They don’t have the physicality to break the line of a Leinster or a Saracens. Forwards win games. Especially in slippy conditions last night. The loss Klyen & Killer, our ball carriers in the recent past, plus Synman who looked like a beast and surely would of fit into that mould. Knowing this, Leinster knew we’re either going to kick or try to go out wide. Every time we went wide, Leinster were able to defend wider knowing we weren’t going to go through them, and using a high pressure defence were able to drive us back. Reality was when we went wide we lost ground. And ended up box kicking. All very predictable in the end. And until we can match that physicality nothing is going to change. Guys like Holland, Loughman, Archer, Ryan just aren’t going to match that level.

                                Also anyone think Cronin looked really out of shape?

                                Hate naming players, all great pros but if we’re going to reach the next level we need bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic tight 5 forwards who can break the line and put better sides under real pressure, that can actually make sides defend more narrow and create that space elsewhere.
                                Cronin hasn't looked fit in a long time. I know props carry a bit of baggage but Cronin looks way over the top.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X