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    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    Sexton was close enough to crashing and burning at 23, I think. He exploded at the point that he replaced Contepomi against us in Dublin.

    I don't think we need need them to be top end when they're 20 - we've had those. JJ was one. Carbery was one.

    We need the ones that find the extra gear in their mid 20s.


    That's the leap that Carbery and Byrne need to make now.
    And the one (Ie leap) that now alas looks beyond JJ. As things turned out the trip to the UK was a mistake- perhaps by then it was already too late.

    ...and what an seagulls day that was in Dublin, when the pony went off I thought we were in the box seat- it was a box alright- start of our coffin years- but Sexton was excellent that day and hasn't looked back.

    Comment


      Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

      And the one (Ie leap) that now alas looks beyond JJ. As things turned out the trip to the UK was a mistake- perhaps by then it was already too late.

      ...and what an seagulls day that was in Dublin, when the pony went off I thought we were in the box seat- it was a box alright- start of our coffin years- but Sexton was excellent that day and hasn't looked back.


      And it wasn't long before that he was hauled to shore at Thomond and there was talk of him being sent back to Mary's, as I remember.

      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



        And it wasn't long before that he was hauled to shore at Thomond and there was talk of him being sent back to Mary's, as I remember.
        God it’s so bloody long since we were competitive.

        Comment


          Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

          God it’s so bloody long since we were competitive.
          2010 at a push really. Since then, we're on our 5th head coach (McGahan/Penney/Foley/Erasmus/JVG).

          Cheika (eventually), Schmidt and now Cullen/Lancaster have all kept them out beyond us.

          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

            Sexton was close enough to crashing and burning at 23, I think. He exploded at the point that he replaced Contepomi against us in Dublin.

            I don't think we need need them to be top end when they're 20 - we've had those. JJ was one. Carbery was one.

            We need the ones that find the extra gear in their mid 20s.


            That's the leap that Carbery and Byrne need to make now.
            This. It always makes me smile when I hear Leinster supporters giving out about the fact we don't trust our youth when it took Contepomi's injury for Sexton to start in big games.
            Good things happen to those who wait, though mostly much too late.

            Comment


              Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

              Absolutely, both in terms of lacking any real challenge, and that we should be producing more, or rather I wish we did. How many world class 10s have, say, Scotland had in that period?

              in terms of Ward and Campbell, both now mid sixties, between them and ROG it was Humphries, Dean etc, that is no one at that world class level. Those fallow years are a bit like now and the last few years of Sexton, decent players, but nothing most other sides would envy.
              Rutherford, Chalmers?, at a stretch, Townsend, Russell
              Gwan Joe!!

              Comment


                Wales have had Davies, Jones, Hook, Biggar
                Gwan Joe!!

                Comment




                  Not making huge claims for all of the players here, but if we take ROG's emergence as the starting mark, England have had Wilkinson, Farrell, Flood, Ford, Hodgson, Cipriani as well as the Barkleys, the Geraghtys, the Lambs etc.

                  We've had 2 fly halves that have spanned the test career of those 6, give or take a couple of years at the start.


                  Have to pause for thought at the fact that 2 of the best young fly halves in their next generation are an Umaga and a Vunipola though....
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by ephileth View Post

                    This. It always makes me smile when I hear Leinster supporters giving out about the fact we don't trust our youth when it took Contepomi's injury for Sexton to start in big games.
                    having to use an example from 2009...
                    Last edited by ScrummieMan; 29-June-2020, 08:49.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by ScrummieMan View Post

                      having to use an example from 2009...

                      Don't have to go back to 2009 to find Andrew Conway stuck behind Dave Kearney....
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                        , England have had Wilkinson, Farrell, Flood, Ford, Hodgson, Cipriani as well as the Barkleys, the Geraghtys, the Lambs etc.
                        Ah here, there's more flakes in that list than my cereal this morning. Wilkinson, Farrell and to a lesser extent Ford are the only truly international class flyhalves there.
                        When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                          Don't have to go back to 2009 to find Andrew Conway stuck behind Dave Kearney....
                          a 21 year old who had 42 senior appearances when he left leinster in 2013.. starting the pro 12 final in his final appearance. (the last time he won something btw)

                          he didn't exactly walk into Munster's strongest 23 upon arrival and has admitted he had a lot of improving to do to become the player he is now.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ScrummieMan View Post

                            a 21 year old who had 42 senior appearances when he left leinster in 2013.. starting the pro 12 final in his final appearance. (the last time he won something btw)

                            he didn't exactly walk into Munster's strongest 23 upon arrival and has admitted he had a lot of improving to do to become the player he is now.
                            He was still behind Dave Kearney.

                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                              He was still behind Dave Kearney.
                              No he wasn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Pro12_Grand_Final

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by B.A. View Post

                                Ah here, there's more flakes in that list than my cereal this morning. Wilkinson, Farrell and to a lesser extent Ford are the only truly international class flyhalves there.


                                Flood has 60 England caps. That's more international caps than Madigan, Jackson and Byrne combined. Hodgson is the leading Premiership points scorer of all time.

                                As for Cipriani, he has plenty of issues but the idea that he's not a top class fly half is a stretch. Outside of ROG and Sexton none of our other fly halves in the pro era come anywhere near him.

                                The top 6 on that list are more accomplished fly halves than Jackson, Madigan, Byrne, Carbery, Paddy Wallace or anyone else we might chuck on that list.


                                My point is simply that Ireland has produced 2 fly halves in 20 years who'd have been selected as first choice for England. We're not very good at producing fly halves.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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