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    #46
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    For context, I would classify Will Connors as a good indicator of a potential 30 cap international (if not more). A guy at Andrew Porters level would be another.
    For subtext I'd agree with you ;-) I think the players I listed above are at that level for their respective ages (Daly perhaps not in that at his age he should probably have broken into the first team by now to make the claim he would be a 30 cap international, but I'll stand by the claim that he has that capacity). I think he suffers from some short termism in our approach over the past few years. Will Connors has come from nowhere this season. 18 months ago he had signed for Connacht before Leo stepped in a tore have Daddy tear up the contract. Daly is the same in my view. The question is will he get the chance to break through and if he does will he grab it in a way that Wootton and Sweetnam before him haven't managed.

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      #47
      Connors just appears and starts winning MOTM awards, is in ireland camp now and you'd wonder what his ceiling is.

      We are discussing how certain lads are going to get into the Munster 23.

      Different levels at the moment, but thats not permanent
      I am the million man.

      Comment


        #48
        I am sure some here listen to Three Red Kings and he has definitely identified the fact that we don't have a dominant tight five as a big issue and speculates that if we were to get Snyman and AN Other in the tight five next year suddenly we will look miles better. I don't pretend to know that much about the game at a high level but if you look at where we are getting beaten it's on the gainline by bigger teams. I wonder is that part of the reason why Archer has been starting because I think at least he is a better carrier in the loose than Ryan.

        Perhaps as some evidence of the hypothesis when you take Furlong, Nugget, Ryan, Fardy and Ruddock out of Leinster's starting pack - like this weekend against Benetton they struggle. A more clinical team would have been 14 0 up playing against 14 after 20 minutes. Then suddenly Ruddock and Cronin get on the pitch in the second half, Leinster start winning the gainline and beating lads back in the tackle and the up and coming players look very talented again.

        Rather than look at 10/12 international players I think we need to be looking at each of the units and asking do we have enough physicality there.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
          Connors just appears and starts winning MOTM awards, is in ireland camp now and you'd wonder what his ceiling is.

          We are discussing how certain lads are going to get into the Munster 23.

          Different levels at the moment, but thats not permanent
          Casey is that level. He’s a kid who’s come straight from Ireland U20s to playing in a HEC game (on merit, not because of injury) ahead of a guy with 50 Leinster caps and making it look easy. He’ll win plenty of MOTMs.

          IMHO we have eight lads who are good enough to be regular Ireland starters: Killer, Beirne, POM, CJ, Murray, Farrell, Conway and Earls.

          Not all are starters right now but they’re at the level required to start 6Ns games. Carbery could be on that list if he could stay fit.

          Then we’ve got two Saffer internationals coming.

          Plus we have a few lads coming through who look like they can make that grade in time: JOD (on the cusp now), Daly, Knox, JOS and Casey.

          I don’t think we’re too far away.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

            And I'm all for continuity. But the trouble is that continuity only serves its purpose if you give it to the right people. Giving time to the wrong coach doesn't make them the right coach. So for me, JVG still needs to show enough to prove that he's worth that investment.
            Van Graan hasn't put a foot wrong. His recruitment has been top class. We lost two of our top class players before he arrived. He's learning the limitations of the job, for sure. Larkham and Roundtree are stunning signings and we know he approached Paulie to come in too. That was brave when you consider all the shenanigans around Axel and Penney and later on surrounding the arrival of Rassie.

            And he came with the imprimatur of Nucifora AND Rassie.

            He tried to keep Alby but Alby went at the insistence of Nucifora having already been kep' on for few months beyond his contract deal. He talked Carbery into moving to Munster when Belfast or England might have been easier or more lucrative options for him. And if he brings de Allende and Snyman that will just burnish his credentials further.

            Given the crazy pool we were in, (three of the four semi finalists from last year FFS!!) it's incredible that we were a little unlucky not to qualify, especially in a RWC year and with all the coaching changes. But had JJ made that drop goal and had he successfully taken the kick to get a losing bonus point at the Allianz Park, we'd have beaten Sarries on the head to head and qualified yesterday. Never mind the gale that helped Sarries to a LBP in in Limerick. QQualification looked so beyond us when the draw was made and though we missed out, the margin was razor thin.

            But the best thing about Van Graan is that he's here and that he was here last year and he'll be here next year. Munster haven't had that since, since when??? Deccie Version I? 2002 (or, possibly Version II??).

            We've had enough revolving doors in the management IMO. A consistent style, recruitment and retention policy, gameplan and getting to grips with the routes into Munster for local talent will all help and you can't achieve that with a foot on either side of the exit.

            I can't see why there isn't reason for a bit more optimism given the evidence we've seen during this European campaign.
            Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
              Van Graan hasn't put a foot wrong. His recruitment has been top class. We lost two of our top class players before he arrived. He's learning the limitations of the job, for sure. Larkham and Roundtree are stunning signings and we know he approached Paulie to come in too. That was brave when you consider all the shenanigans around Axel and Penney and later on surrounding the arrival of Rassie.

              And he came with the imprimatur of Nucifora AND Rassie.

              He tried to keep Alby but Alby went at the insistence of Nucifora having already been kep' on for few months beyond his contract deal. He talked Carbery into moving to Munster when Belfast or England might have been easier or more lucrative options for him. And if he brings de Allende and Snyman that will just burnish his credentials further.

              Given the crazy pool we were in, (three of the four semi finalists from last year FFS!!) it's incredible that we were a little unlucky not to qualify, especially in a RWC year and with all the coaching changes. But had JJ made that drop goal and had he successfully taken the kick to get a losing bonus point at the Allianz Park, we'd have beaten Sarries on the head to head and qualified yesterday. Never mind the gale that helped Sarries to a LBP in in Limerick. QQualification looked so beyond us when the draw was made and though we missed out, the margin was razor thin.

              But the best thing about Van Graan is that he's here and that he was here last year and he'll be here next year. Munster haven't had that since, since when??? Deccie Version I? 2002 (or, possibly Version II??).

              We've had enough revolving doors in the management IMO. A consistent style, recruitment and retention policy, gameplan and getting to grips with the routes into Munster for local talent will all help and you can't achieve that with a foot on either side of the exit.

              I can't see why there isn't reason for a bit more optimism given the evidence we've seen during this European campaign.


              Because we’re half way through his second full season and can’t string three passes together. We got battered by ulster and beaten by Leinster Bs.

              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                Because we’re half way through his second full season and can’t string three passes together. We got battered by ulster and beaten by Leinster Bs.
                It’s this kind of overreaction and expectation that heaps ridiculous pressure on our coaching staff and team.

                You don’t turn a team with our limitations in both playing staff and skills into HEC winners in a season and a half.

                He’s doing exactly what we need: brought in top class coaches with the right attacking philosophy, recruiting two top class players in areas of need, developing the most promising of our young lads.

                Comment


                  #53


                  Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                  It’s this kind of overreaction and expectation that heaps ridiculous pressure on our coaching staff and team.

                  You don’t turn a team with our limitations in both playing staff and skills into HEC winners in a season and a half.

                  He’s doing exactly what we need: brought in top class coaches with the right attacking philosophy, recruiting two top class players in areas of need, developing the most promising of our young lads.
                  How can Munster have so much of a weakness in terms of playing staff and ball skills though as only a couple of months ago Kilcoyne, Scannell, POM, CJ, Farrell, Earls, Conway, Murray etc were supposed to be good enough to get to a RWC semifinal?

                  Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post



                    How can Munster have so much of a weakness in terms of playing staff and ball skills though as only a couple of months ago Kilcoyne, Scannell, POM, CJ, Farrell, Earls, Conway, Murray etc were supposed to be good enough to get to a RWC semifinal?

                    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
                    Joe ruined them. The durty Leinster bollix.
                    Last edited by Miguel Sanchez; 21st-January-2020, 13:04.
                    Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                    Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                      Because we’re half way through his second full season and can’t string three passes together. We got battered by ulster and beaten by Leinster Bs.
                      Ulster was a bad performance to be sure but it wasn't the first time Munster lost heavily in a game the week before a critical Heineken Cup game. I remember David Wallace apologising to fans on behalf of the team for just such an outing to Embra with the full "Old Munster' team out and utterly disinterested.

                      And as for Leinster Bs, with Ross Byrne, Jamison Gibson-Park; Andrew Porter; Devin Toner and Scott Fardy, Caelan Doris & co they're still possibly the second best team in the league and losing to Leinster is hardly new since 2009, that's 10 years now, not that we're counting. And anyway we were hardly full strength with, Sammy Arnold, Shane Daly, Nick McCarthy; Kevin O’Byrne, and Chris Cloete in the starting XV. none of whom would feature in our firsts in everyone was fit.

                      The IRFU insisted on a full two-week break for the internationals which screwed Munster as we just don't have the depth to cover Saracens back to back, Connacht in Galway, Leinster, Ulster away and Racing 92 away in sequence. That's reality. And that's a real shame because beating Leinster would have been a real boost for the team and taken a bit of pressure off everyone.
                      Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                        It’s this kind of overreaction and expectation that heaps ridiculous pressure on our coaching staff and team.

                        You don’t turn a team with our limitations in both playing staff and skills into HEC winners in a season and a half.

                        He’s doing exactly what we need: brought in top class coaches with the right attacking philosophy, recruiting two top class players in areas of need, developing the most promising of our young lads.
                        It's not over reaction. Against Ulster we literally did not pass the ball three times in succession at any point in the match.

                        Flannery and Jones took the fall for the lack of progress last year. Yes, we have two good coaches in to replace them. And hopefully the two signings land.


                        But somewhere in the midst of all that, JVG is supposed to be able to coach the team. And until there is some evidence on the pitch that that's happening, my optimism will remain limited.



                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                          Ulster was a bad performance to be sure but it wasn't the first time Munster lost heavily in a game the week before a critical Heineken Cup game. I remember David Wallace apologising to fans on behalf of the team for just such an outing to Embra with the full "Old Munster' team out and utterly disinterested.

                          And as for Leinster Bs, with Ross Byrne, Jamison Gibson-Park; Andrew Porter; Devin Toner and Scott Fardy, Caelan Doris & co they're still possibly the second best team in the league and losing to Leinster is hardly new since 2009, that's 10 years now, not that we're counting. And anyway we were hardly full strength with, Sammy Arnold, Shane Daly, Nick McCarthy; Kevin O’Byrne, and Chris Cloete in the starting XV. none of whom would feature in our firsts in everyone was fit.

                          The IRFU insisted on a full two-week break for the internationals which screwed Munster as we just don't have the depth to cover Saracens back to back, Connacht in Galway, Leinster, Ulster away and Racing 92 away in sequence. That's reality. And that's a real shame because beating Leinster would have been a real boost for the team and taken a bit of pressure off everyone.

                          All of that is perfectly reasonable. I was just answering your question. People are hoping, but actual optimism is going to need us to show some progress. And throughout December and into January I thought it was unfortunate that we seemed to retrench into the worst of our previous habits.

                          I see a team with a high error rate, uncomfortable with the ball, shakier in defence than it's been in years, prone to turning over the ball in key positions.

                          I have some hope. I won't have any sort of optimism until I see some evidence that JVG - a man who has never in his career done what we're asking him to do - is the man for the job.

                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                            It's not over reaction. Against Ulster we literally did not pass the ball three times in succession at any point in the match.

                            Flannery and Jones took the fall for the lack of progress last year. Yes, we have two good coaches in to replace them. And hopefully the two signings land.


                            But somewhere in the midst of all that, JVG is supposed to be able to coach the team. And until there is some evidence on the pitch that that's happening, my optimism will remain limited.

                            There was plenty of evidence of a better gameplan and higher skills in the first two months of the season. Then the Joebots returned and kicked the leather of anything they saw, looked for corners to run around and into contact and rucks to resource. I want to see JvG be brave enough to drop Murray, Haley, POM, Billy etc for Casey, Daly, JOD/JOS, Wych/Coombes if after the 6 Nations that's what the form of players indicates is needed.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                              There was plenty of evidence of a better gameplan and higher skills in the first two months of the season. Then the Joebots returned and kicked the leather of anything they saw, looked for corners to run around and into contact and rucks to resource. I want to see JvG be brave enough to drop Murray, Haley, POM, Billy etc for Casey, Daly, JOD/JOS, Wych/Coombes if after the 6 Nations that's what the form of players indicates is needed.
                              During those first two months he was one of the netter players on the pitch for Munster. I have a feeling that when the internationals came back, the staff saw that what they had been doing was not going to work with the fellas who'd just gotten back from several months of Schmidt and decided to scale it back. I think Haley will have a good run of form in this upcoming period; they're going to need all the attacking threats they can muster.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Haley's pop up off the ground after a good break to JOD at full tilt was a thing of beauty last Sunday, and hopefully a preview of the future plan, we haven't seen our openside trailing breaks with intent like this too often.

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