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HEC R5. Racing vs. Munster. Paris. TV Coverage BT Sport. Sunday 12th Jan @3.15pm

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  • Sea Horse
    replied
    Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post
    His track record with SA speaks for itself - laziest set of forward packs SA has seen in pro era, routinely shipping awful beatings. The fact that the cutest of political operators Rassie seemingly didn't do much to keep him in SA explains a lot because he was supposedly given a blank canvas.
    I think he's out of his debt as head man in Munster and we certainly aren't getting the maximum from these set of players, most of the players form has deteriorated. The decision to change how we play was decided upon this season and not last season when he was already 6 months in the job. What was his original philosophy that he sold to the Munster brains? Flannery and Jones turning down contracts aswell suggest all was not well in the camp.

    For him to be here 2 1/2 years and to have have such a confused set of players is an inditement on him.

    Positively, Larkham and Rowntree are very credible coaches. Done well to get them.
    It may be a bit tight for him in terms of time to achieve things, but as regards coaching and vision he's probably better set than any time in his tenure. Players form and buy-in are needed for him to get the most out of the coaching ticket for this season. Some new talent and our own homegrown coming to fruition are needed for next season and onwards.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redcafe1
    replied
    Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post
    His track record with SA speaks for itself - laziest set of forward packs SA has seen in pro era, routinely shipping awful beatings. The fact that the cutest of political operators Rassie seemingly didn't do much to keep him in SA explains a lot because he was supposedly given a blank canvas.
    I think he's out of his debt as head man in Munster and we certainly aren't getting the maximum from these set of players, most of the players form has deteriorated. The decision to change how we play was decided upon this season and not last season when he was already 6 months in the job. What was his original philosophy that he sold to the Munster brains? Flannery and Jones turning down contracts aswell suggest all was not well in the camp.

    For him to be here 2 1/2 years and to have have such a confused set of players is an inditement on him.

    Positively, Larkham and Rowntree are very credible coaches. Done well to get them.
    Go over to the " vanlarktree" ball thread and have a look at the Keith Earl's article from the 42 which someone has posted up the link.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    I think the height thing is a bit of a fetish- it’s clearly an advantage in some cases but it’s not a determining factor. Consider DOS, for example, meets the height criterion, but, unfortunately for him and us, he isn’t really at the level we need. Consider Dev - absolute lighthouse, but even Joe didn’t think that was enough to justify the seat (presumably extra leg room) on the plan to Japan. Chips’ list above has the low /average height for a lock Itoje at 6 foot 5. Would walk on my world team at lock. Sure, all other things being equal, height (actually the extra reach) gives a line out advantage (or requires less throwing accuracy/timing from the hooker, eg Cronin), but aggression, physicality used effectively, and mobility are surely as important when the guy is 6 4 or more.
    Yep, I agree. However going to Paris or wherever with two 6'4 locks going up against 4 or 5 gigantic jumpers in the opposition lineout doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

    Factor in the jumping ability of the rest of the pack or, especially Chris Cloete and you might start to sweat


    We are a small side in the modern game was my premise

    Leave a comment:


  • Miguel Sanchez
    replied
    Mick Galwey wasn't very tall

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    I think the height thing is a bit of a fetish- it’s clearly an advantage in some cases but it’s not a determining factor. Consider DOS, for example, meets the height criterion, but, unfortunately for him and us, he isn’t really at the level we need. Consider Dev - absolute lighthouse, but even Joe didn’t think that was enough to justify the seat (presumably extra leg room) on the plan to Japan. Chips’ list above has the low /average height for a lock Itoje at 6 foot 5. Would walk on my world team at lock. Sure, all other things being equal, height (actually the extra reach) gives a line out advantage (or requires less throwing accuracy/timing from the hooker, eg Cronin), but aggression, physicality used effectively, and mobility are surely as important when the guy is 6 4 or more.
    AWJ is 6'5 as well. O'Connell 6'6.

    You sense there's a minimum threshold there somewhere, but if you can be among the best locks of all time a 6' 5/6, then at 6'4 you'd think you'd be able to attain a good standard.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

    To be fair, lock is one of the areas where the bigger population really counts. Having twice as many people in your catchment areas means you're always likely to have bigger ****ers in your midst. You can get a long way to making up the population disparity with rugby tradition and good coaching, as Munster's hoodoo for years over Leinster showed, and you can even teach players how to run faster but the one thing you can't coach is height.
    I think the height thing is a bit of a fetish- it’s clearly an advantage in some cases but it’s not a determining factor. Consider DOS, for example, meets the height criterion, but, unfortunately for him and us, he isn’t really at the level we need. Consider Dev - absolute lighthouse, but even Joe didn’t think that was enough to justify the seat (presumably extra leg room) on the plan to Japan. Chips’ list above has the low /average height for a lock Itoje at 6 foot 5. Would walk on my world team at lock. Sure, all other things being equal, height (actually the extra reach) gives a line out advantage (or requires less throwing accuracy/timing from the hooker, eg Cronin), but aggression, physicality used effectively, and mobility are surely as important when the guy is 6 4 or more.

    Leave a comment:


  • whimpersnap
    replied
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

    I hear you Chippy, but for instance:

    James Ryan 6'8
    Scott Fardy 6'6
    Devin Toner 6'10
    Jean Kleyn 6'8
    Donnacha Ryan 6'7
    Dominic Bird 6'9
    Maro Itoje 6'5
    Will Skelton 6'8
    George Kruis 6'6


    We are getting to the sides where bigger players are battering us to submission, we need more guys who are huge. Can we compete with those lineouts with a 6'3 and 6'4 couple of locks? We are small as it is, Fineen might be listed as a lock and played here as a lock, would he be a lock in Racing, Sarries, Leinster?
    To be fair, lock is one of the areas where the bigger population really counts. Having twice as many people in your catchment areas means you're always likely to have bigger ****ers in your midst. You can get a long way to making up the population disparity with rugby tradition and good coaching, as Munster's hoodoo for years over Leinster showed, and you can even teach players how to run faster but the one thing you can't coach is height.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redcafe1
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    Haley was also an exception until recently. So that sort of leaves, other than those who had the depressing Japan experience..... who?
    That's my point in a nutshell. I think we have quite a few limited players and a few who may well be now past their prime.

    like others, I think we were slow to make changes on Sunday. One other point worth making , the guys who played the Ulster game after being off 2 weeks benefited from it ( bad and all as that performance was). I do think that the likes of Stander, Farrell looked like they had not played for 3 weeks and were a bit off.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by FORWARD.... View Post

    Sadly I have to agree with this. Botha and Rory S excepted. Both was excellent at the start of the season.

    The team really has gone backwards since the reintroduction of the internationals post RWC.
    Haley was also an exception until recently. So that sort of leaves, other than those who had the depressing Japan experience..... who?

    Leave a comment:


  • FORWARD....
    replied
    Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post

    None of the Scannell brothers, Ryan, Cloete, Haley, Botha have kicked on, all are in pretty bad form and these are players who would have been expected to step up. Bad sign when so many players are playing badly. It's not just the established internationals who have been poor for Munster.
    Sadly I have to agree with this. Botha and Rory S excepted. Both was excellent at the start of the season.

    The team really has gone backwards since the reintroduction of the internationals post RWC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tobyglen
    replied
    Originally posted by Redcafe1 View Post

    has the form of players playing with ireland deteriorated in the last 13 months also ?
    None of the Scannell brothers, Ryan, Cloete, Haley, Botha have kicked on, all are in pretty bad form and these are players who would have been expected to step up. Bad sign when so many players are playing badly. It's not just the established internationals who have been poor for Munster.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redcafe1
    replied
    Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post
    His track record with SA speaks for itself - laziest set of forward packs SA has seen in pro era, routinely shipping awful beatings. The fact that the cutest of political operators Rassie seemingly didn't do much to keep him in SA explains a lot because he was supposedly given a blank canvas.
    I think he's out of his debt as head man in Munster and we certainly aren't getting the maximum from these set of players, most of the players form has deteriorated. The decision to change how we play was decided upon this season and not last season when he was already 6 months in the job. What was his original philosophy that he sold to the Munster brains? Flannery and Jones turning down contracts aswell suggest all was not well in the camp.

    For him to be here 2 1/2 years and to have have such a confused set of players is an inditement on him.

    Positively, Larkham and Rowntree are very credible coaches. Done well to get them.
    has the form of players playing with ireland deteriorated in the last 13 months also ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Redcafe1
    replied
    Originally posted by Yatenga View Post

    I thought Wessels turned us down, took job with Melbourne instead. But I dont have any special insight
    You are correct on that one

    Leave a comment:


  • Yatenga
    replied
    Originally posted by Red Ghost View Post

    I seem to remember David Wessels was the original front-runner for the job, and Rassie seemed surprised we went with Van Graan. At the time it sounded like Wessels was Rassie's recommendation, but I'm just going by what was reported.
    I thought Wessels turned us down, took job with Melbourne instead. But I dont have any special insight

    Leave a comment:


  • Tobyglen
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    I don't think it's lazy muttering. He arrived here as someone who'd been a Technical Adviser to the worst Boks team in living memory (one rapidly turned around and improved by Erasmus so let's be clear - the previous ticket was ****).


    Prior to that he was Forwards and Attack Coach for the Bulls. Super 14 Titles in 2007, 2009, 2010.


    He coached his first game for Munster in November 2017. It's now January 2020. Our limitations have been clearly visible since his first season here. He's had the back end of 17/18, then he "needed a whole pre-season". In 18-19 we were basically the same team, hitting a wall in the semis, and Fla and Felix went as a result. We're now a few months into 19/20 - his second full season in charge. Ok, there's been world cup disruption and he's bedding in new coaches. Fine, grand, I totally believe he should be given time to do so.

    And I know that the chances are we will do nothing about it anyway.


    But I can't accept that it's unreasonable to expect some visible sign that things will be different next year when a coach has been in place for two and a half seasons. I can't accept that it's not reasonable to expect that a guy in the midst of his second full season in the job might have stamped some sort of identity on his team, regardless of changes in support.


    I'm not calling for his head. I'm just saying he has plenty to prove in the rest of this year, and limited credentials to demand that people wait faithfully for him to show what he can do.


    And it's not unreasonable for us not to be critical. We talk about our defence, but we've just conceded 77 points in two games. No one is going to be protesting on the terraces, but this is a professional game and there has to be both expectation and accountability.


    JVG now has a strong coaching ticket in place. He has his internationals back. We've got Ospreys, Kings, Zebre, Scarlets at home, Benetton twice and Cardiff in Thomond before we play Leinster in the Aviva in April.

    I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think that we should arrive in Dublin looking like a very, very different outfit. And if we don't, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why not.

    In fact, I'd be amazed if anyone at his level in his profession would disagree with that.
    His track record with SA speaks for itself - laziest set of forward packs SA has seen in pro era, routinely shipping awful beatings. The fact that the cutest of political operators Rassie seemingly didn't do much to keep him in SA explains a lot because he was supposedly given a blank canvas.
    I think he's out of his debt as head man in Munster and we certainly aren't getting the maximum from these set of players, most of the players form has deteriorated. The decision to change how we play was decided upon this season and not last season when he was already 6 months in the job. What was his original philosophy that he sold to the Munster brains? Flannery and Jones turning down contracts aswell suggest all was not well in the camp.

    For him to be here 2 1/2 years and to have have such a confused set of players is an inditement on him.

    Positively, Larkham and Rowntree are very credible coaches. Done well to get them.
    Last edited by Tobyglen; 14th-January-2020, 15:31.

    Leave a comment:

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