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HEC R5. Racing vs. Munster. Paris. TV Coverage BT Sport. Sunday 12th Jan @3.15pm

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    Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post

    A man of rare foresight indeed. Why didn't the powers that be listen?
    The IRFU pays the players less than their true market value in England or France on the basis that if you stick with the system you will be looked after (IRFU Player Welfare Programme) and can play international rugby. If the IRFU suddenly start a cull of any of the provinces on the basis of injury, age, short term poor performance then the trust is lost and players who are at national level may take a view that given the short life span of a pro rugby player I may well take more money if I'm likely to lose a contract if I'm not in the national squad.

    The IRFU policy of looking after players has many advantages but it also has its problems.
    \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

    \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

    I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

    Comment


      Yes, but if your squad have all aged at the same time and are in their early 30s then you have an unfortunate future
      Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



      Comment


        Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post

        The IRFU pays the players less than their true market value in England or France on the basis that if you stick with the system you will be looked after (IRFU Player Welfare Programme) and can play international rugby. If the IRFU suddenly start a cull of any of the provinces on the basis of injury, age, short term poor performance then the trust is lost and players who are at national level may take a view that given the short life span of a pro rugby player I may well take more money if I'm likely to lose a contract if I'm not in the national squad.

        The IRFU policy of looking after players has many advantages but it also has its problems.
        Here we go again.

        Nobody here knows what the players get paid, and frankly it's none of our business.
        Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
        Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

        Comment


          Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

          I hear you Chippy, but for instance:

          James Ryan 6'8
          Scott Fardy 6'6
          Devin Toner 6'10
          Jean Kleyn 6'8
          Donnacha Ryan 6'7
          Dominic Bird 6'9
          Maro Itoje 6'5
          Will Skelton 6'8
          George Kruis 6'6


          We are getting to the sides where bigger players are battering us to submission, we need more guys who are huge. Can we compete with those lineouts with a 6'3 and 6'4 couple of locks? We are small as it is, Fineen might be listed as a lock and played here as a lock, would he be a lock in Racing, Sarries, Leinster?
          Yeah, I agree. I was going to post more about this particular issue but thought I'd better put it in the Munster Squad thread, where I commented on broadly the same lines as you. But purely in relation to what you were saying about the weekend's match and us having nobody deemed worthy of inclusion with Beirne out injured, I'm pretty sure that if Wych hadn't been concussed during our previous game, then he would have been our lock cover on Sunday rather than 6'2" Arno Botha.
          Tis but a scratch.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post

            Here we go again.

            Nobody here knows what the players get paid, and frankly it's none of our business.


            It's reasonable to infer from the regular kite flying about European club interest, and things that have been said by former internationals, that the IRFU (relatively speaking) low balls its offers in a trade off for career management and test rugby.

            I mean, the alternative is that Leinster have a player budget somewhere north of Toulon's isn't it?
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



              I don't think it's lazy muttering. He arrived here as someone who'd been a Technical Adviser to the worst Boks team in living memory (one rapidly turned around and improved by Erasmus so let's be clear - the previous ticket was ****).


              Prior to that he was Forwards and Attack Coach for the Bulls. Super 14 Titles in 2007, 2009, 2010.


              He coached his first game for Munster in November 2017. It's now January 2020. Our limitations have been clearly visible since his first season here. He's had the back end of 17/18, then he "needed a whole pre-season". In 18-19 we were basically the same team, hitting a wall in the semis, and Fla and Felix went as a result. We're now a few months into 19/20 - his second full season in charge. Ok, there's been world cup disruption and he's bedding in new coaches. Fine, grand, I totally believe he should be given time to do so.

              And I know that the chances are we will do nothing about it anyway.


              But I can't accept that it's unreasonable to expect some visible sign that things will be different next year when a coach has been in place for two and a half seasons. I can't accept that it's not reasonable to expect that a guy in the midst of his second full season in the job might have stamped some sort of identity on his team, regardless of changes in support.


              I'm not calling for his head. I'm just saying he has plenty to prove in the rest of this year, and limited credentials to demand that people wait faithfully for him to show what he can do.


              And it's not unreasonable for us not to be critical. We talk about our defence, but we've just conceded 77 points in two games. No one is going to be protesting on the terraces, but this is a professional game and there has to be both expectation and accountability.


              JVG now has a strong coaching ticket in place. He has his internationals back. We've got Ospreys, Kings, Zebre, Scarlets at home, Benetton twice and Cardiff in Thomond before we play Leinster in the Aviva in April.

              I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think that we should arrive in Dublin looking like a very, very different outfit. And if we don't, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why not.

              In fact, I'd be amazed if anyone at his level in his profession would disagree with that.
              His track record with SA speaks for itself - laziest set of forward packs SA has seen in pro era, routinely shipping awful beatings. The fact that the cutest of political operators Rassie seemingly didn't do much to keep him in SA explains a lot because he was supposedly given a blank canvas.
              I think he's out of his debt as head man in Munster and we certainly aren't getting the maximum from these set of players, most of the players form has deteriorated. The decision to change how we play was decided upon this season and not last season when he was already 6 months in the job. What was his original philosophy that he sold to the Munster brains? Flannery and Jones turning down contracts aswell suggest all was not well in the camp.

              For him to be here 2 1/2 years and to have have such a confused set of players is an inditement on him.

              Positively, Larkham and Rowntree are very credible coaches. Done well to get them.
              Last edited by Tobyglen; 14th-January-2020, 16:31.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Red Ghost View Post

                I seem to remember David Wessels was the original front-runner for the job, and Rassie seemed surprised we went with Van Graan. At the time it sounded like Wessels was Rassie's recommendation, but I'm just going by what was reported.
                I thought Wessels turned us down, took job with Melbourne instead. But I dont have any special insight

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Yatenga View Post

                  I thought Wessels turned us down, took job with Melbourne instead. But I dont have any special insight
                  You are correct on that one

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post
                    His track record with SA speaks for itself - laziest set of forward packs SA has seen in pro era, routinely shipping awful beatings. The fact that the cutest of political operators Rassie seemingly didn't do much to keep him in SA explains a lot because he was supposedly given a blank canvas.
                    I think he's out of his debt as head man in Munster and we certainly aren't getting the maximum from these set of players, most of the players form has deteriorated. The decision to change how we play was decided upon this season and not last season when he was already 6 months in the job. What was his original philosophy that he sold to the Munster brains? Flannery and Jones turning down contracts aswell suggest all was not well in the camp.

                    For him to be here 2 1/2 years and to have have such a confused set of players is an inditement on him.

                    Positively, Larkham and Rowntree are very credible coaches. Done well to get them.
                    has the form of players playing with ireland deteriorated in the last 13 months also ?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Redcafe1 View Post

                      has the form of players playing with ireland deteriorated in the last 13 months also ?
                      None of the Scannell brothers, Ryan, Cloete, Haley, Botha have kicked on, all are in pretty bad form and these are players who would have been expected to step up. Bad sign when so many players are playing badly. It's not just the established internationals who have been poor for Munster.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post

                        None of the Scannell brothers, Ryan, Cloete, Haley, Botha have kicked on, all are in pretty bad form and these are players who would have been expected to step up. Bad sign when so many players are playing badly. It's not just the established internationals who have been poor for Munster.
                        Sadly I have to agree with this. Botha and Rory S excepted. Both was excellent at the start of the season.

                        The team really has gone backwards since the reintroduction of the internationals post RWC.
                        "Fineen Wycherley was everywhere. When I watched this video back late on Saturday night I half expected to look up from my laptop to find him in my kitchen ' TRK Nov 3rd 2019 following Cardiff v Munster

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by FORWARD.... View Post

                          Sadly I have to agree with this. Botha and Rory S excepted. Both was excellent at the start of the season.

                          The team really has gone backwards since the reintroduction of the internationals post RWC.
                          Haley was also an exception until recently. So that sort of leaves, other than those who had the depressing Japan experience..... who?

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                            Haley was also an exception until recently. So that sort of leaves, other than those who had the depressing Japan experience..... who?
                            That's my point in a nutshell. I think we have quite a few limited players and a few who may well be now past their prime.

                            like others, I think we were slow to make changes on Sunday. One other point worth making , the guys who played the Ulster game after being off 2 weeks benefited from it ( bad and all as that performance was). I do think that the likes of Stander, Farrell looked like they had not played for 3 weeks and were a bit off.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                              I hear you Chippy, but for instance:

                              James Ryan 6'8
                              Scott Fardy 6'6
                              Devin Toner 6'10
                              Jean Kleyn 6'8
                              Donnacha Ryan 6'7
                              Dominic Bird 6'9
                              Maro Itoje 6'5
                              Will Skelton 6'8
                              George Kruis 6'6


                              We are getting to the sides where bigger players are battering us to submission, we need more guys who are huge. Can we compete with those lineouts with a 6'3 and 6'4 couple of locks? We are small as it is, Fineen might be listed as a lock and played here as a lock, would he be a lock in Racing, Sarries, Leinster?
                              To be fair, lock is one of the areas where the bigger population really counts. Having twice as many people in your catchment areas means you're always likely to have bigger ****ers in your midst. You can get a long way to making up the population disparity with rugby tradition and good coaching, as Munster's hoodoo for years over Leinster showed, and you can even teach players how to run faster but the one thing you can't coach is height.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

                                To be fair, lock is one of the areas where the bigger population really counts. Having twice as many people in your catchment areas means you're always likely to have bigger ****ers in your midst. You can get a long way to making up the population disparity with rugby tradition and good coaching, as Munster's hoodoo for years over Leinster showed, and you can even teach players how to run faster but the one thing you can't coach is height.
                                I think the height thing is a bit of a fetish- it’s clearly an advantage in some cases but it’s not a determining factor. Consider DOS, for example, meets the height criterion, but, unfortunately for him and us, he isn’t really at the level we need. Consider Dev - absolute lighthouse, but even Joe didn’t think that was enough to justify the seat (presumably extra leg room) on the plan to Japan. Chips’ list above has the low /average height for a lock Itoje at 6 foot 5. Would walk on my world team at lock. Sure, all other things being equal, height (actually the extra reach) gives a line out advantage (or requires less throwing accuracy/timing from the hooker, eg Cronin), but aggression, physicality used effectively, and mobility are surely as important when the guy is 6 4 or more.

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