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HEC R5. Racing vs. Munster. Paris. TV Coverage BT Sport. Sunday 12th Jan @3.15pm

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    The Ospreys game, mini break and run of fixtures against lower ranking teams is a huge opportunity for coaching staff and players alike, to address issues that are plan for all to see. With BB, I think it’s entirely reasonable to think that we should see decent improvement by the time we head into harder fixtures (and with more match time under the belts of our younger players).

    I hope Munster looked at stronger CVs than JVG before his appointment. If they didn’t then that needs explaining (not to us!), if the say those cvs and went for JVG then I’m OK with giving an up and coming guy a break etc.. By now I think it’s reasonable to expect real evidence of progress by now, there is (eg better coaching ticket, big improvement in some young players, larger squad?) but little of it is on the pitch (and it may be generous to give home credit for the other stuff). The aspiration and investment means EVERYONE on and off the field has questions to answer about why we are not going forward. The two SA signings will strengthen things, but we can’t just wait for the cavalry to come over the hills, players, coaches and yes, particularly JVG have responsibilities to us, as fans, to burst a gut to get things right.

    Comment


      Originally posted by The Yak View Post

      I don't understand your point. You seem to be saying that some BMs want JVG to be sacked sometime in the future. No club makes that kind of decision. We could win the Pro 14 ?

      JVG has brought in 2 highly rated coaches and, we hope, is bringing in 2 top internationals. He is working to a clear plan but must be given time.

      Surely, the fact that we were not that far from getting out of the hardest group of all, is progress when we had failed to compete with our 2 main group opponents in the recent past moreover when you consider our injury list.


      We beat Racing home and away in our group 10 months before JVG arrived. We then beat Toulon in the quarter, and lost by 5 to Racing in the Semi in Bordeaux (though they blew us away in the first half).

      The next season, we drew away with Exeter and beat them at home, lost narrowly to Castres away, and walloped Glaws at their place after beating them at home, beat Embra and got walloped by Sarries in the Semi.


      Given how Sarries tend to start their seasons, I think it's optimistic to think we've narrowed the gap between ourselves and those teams, to be honest.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
        The Ospreys game, mini break and run of fixtures against lower ranking teams is a huge opportunity for coaching staff and players alike, to address issues that are plan for all to see. With BB, I think it’s entirely reasonable to think that we should see decent improvement by the time we head into harder fixtures (and with more match time under the belts of our younger players).

        I hope Munster looked at stronger CVs than JVG before his appointment. If they didn’t then that needs explaining (not to us!), if the say those cvs and went for JVG then I’m OK with giving an up and coming guy a break etc.. By now I think it’s reasonable to expect real evidence of progress by now, there is (eg better coaching ticket, big improvement in some young players, larger squad?) but little of it is on the pitch (and it may be generous to give home credit for the other stuff). The aspiration and investment means EVERYONE on and off the field has questions to answer about why we are not going forward. The two SA signings will strengthen things, but we can’t just wait for the cavalry to come over the hills, players, coaches and yes, particularly JVG have responsibilities to us, as fans, to burst a gut to get things right.


        To confess a personal bias, I've always had an assumption that Rassie boosted JVG as a replacement to ease his release to SA.


        This is founded on absolutely nothing :-)
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



          To confess a personal bias, I've always had an assumption that Rassie boosted JVG as a replacement to ease his release to SA.


          This is founded on absolutely nothing :-)
          We all have our biases, maybe not always aware of what they are! There was a Saturday in Limerick a few years ago all the players on the field and bench, and coaching staff were Munster born. I swelled with pride- but the reality was that we’d be murdered by top sides. I love the camaraderie, passion, loyalty- the ‘romantic’ ideal as someone referred to it above. But I also want a pragmatic, winning oriented side, I honestly believe we can have enough of both to satisfy us, but not without demanding more on and off the pitch. (And that doesn’t mean rushing for the sack as a solution- it only ever is if you replace with better).

          Given people on the inside must have had a fair idea Rassie was going to go, you would imagine they would have been having a good look around. I don’t mind if Rassie made the case for JVG, he may even have been right (even from Munsters point of view), but we really do need to see compelling tangible progress by the end of the season- and for that the next couple of months are crucial.

          Comment


            Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post

            Come on Cowboy. We’ve had worse days. But we remain supporters of one of the most remarkable and enduring rugby clubs.

            It was never easy for us the first time in 2006, and if anything it’s at least twice as difficult now.

            You could be right, but you are possibly wrong too.

            Let’s keep the faith. And you’ll feel better in the morning.
            Never got to give you a thumbs up for this (moving house all weekend)

            Its not a resignation for my part, more a realisation - namely that those with money (and I include the Leinster private schooling system in this) are like Usain Bolt in the last 40m of thee hundred meter dash. Its a short race, but I am taking the long term view here.


            Click image for larger version

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            The longer this race goes on the further the Bolts' are going to pull away. That chosen few with resources are going to make a little cadre of perennial winners

            Stu Barnes on Off the Ball last night mentioned the Racing and French fitness in general, instead of some fitter players being forced to last 80 mins, they've gone in the other direction: bigger badder heavier behemoths who last little more than half a game and then load on almost half a team off the bench. More players, deeper squad, more power battering our lads to a standstill.

            Have a look at our bench from the weekend:

            Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, John Ryan, Arno Botha, Chris Cloete, Craig Casey, Dan Goggin, Shane Daly.

            We didnt even have a lock available deemed worthy of inclusion and we've one injury - Tadhg Beirne.

            Play it forward 12 months:

            Snyman comes in, hypothetically, and we are playing Racing again with one lock injury from our top 3 (Snyman Kleyn and Beirne) you're looking at a 35 year old Billy Holland subbing or no lock on the bench once again? Where are we going?

            The gap between us and the great teams is not only increasing, we are to my eye, standing still. When the rich sides hit a bump they buy in a solution, we cant do that, and we are not even producing players of our own good enough - Snyman and De Allende on top of all the recent imports?:

            Loughman Rhys Knox
            Kleyn Beirne
            Cloete and Botha
            Joey Farrell Haley

            Dont let it seem I am anti import, far from it!

            I am deflated by how poor our local players for the recent past are appearing to be in comparison to the levels demanded within Racing Toulouse Sarries Leinster etc. Every year we suffer an injury crisis somewhere in the team and every year when we get booted out of the competitions we say on here that we havent the players.

            How much longer are we not going to have the players? Whats going to change to increase the amount? we cannot ask JP to go get Beauden Barrett to run around for 3 months in red, hard to see that ever happening. So whats it going to take? Pete saying hes sick of losing semi finals is a constant theme


            I am the million man.

            Comment


              Cowboy, the Wych was also out.
              Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



              Comment


                Originally posted by scotscor View Post
                Cowboy, the Wych was also out.
                Not a lock I dont think, but I take your point.

                EDIT (in my book hes perhaps not a lock because of his height and how small our pack is generally)
                Last edited by Cowboy; 14th-January-2020, 11:45.
                I am the million man.

                Comment


                  Who was it again that suggested axing all over 30's?
                  Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                  Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                  Comment


                    I'm not sure how to get a quick analysis of the season, but he started the first three games at lock, so while I accept he is not exclusively a lock, I think he is the same as Beirne in that he can play in both rows, but for me they are both selected primarily in the second row
                    Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



                    Comment


                      Wycherley gets played quite often at lock, despite being a bit short for the position at 6'4" (that said, he's slightly taller than one of our consistent starters at lock, 6'3" Billy Holland).
                      Tis but a scratch.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                        Wycherley gets played quite often at lock, despite being a bit short for the position at 6'4" (that said, he's slightly taller than one of our consistent starters at lock, 6'3" Billy Holland).
                        I hear you Chippy, but for instance:

                        James Ryan 6'8
                        Scott Fardy 6'6
                        Devin Toner 6'10
                        Jean Kleyn 6'8
                        Donnacha Ryan 6'7
                        Dominic Bird 6'9
                        Maro Itoje 6'5
                        Will Skelton 6'8
                        George Kruis 6'6


                        We are getting to the sides where bigger players are battering us to submission, we need more guys who are huge. Can we compete with those lineouts with a 6'3 and 6'4 couple of locks? We are small as it is, Fineen might be listed as a lock and played here as a lock, would he be a lock in Racing, Sarries, Leinster?
                        I am the million man.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                          Who was it again that suggested axing all over 30's?
                          Not what I said, but always the version that you remember and repeat,

                          I said sometime in approximately 2011, that a long poor time was coming and that we were unlikely to win a title anytime soon and we needed to invest in the future. I think I said that we should look at if a player was over 30 and was not an international or a regular international that we should not be renewing their contracts. It might even have been less than 30 I cant remember, but it was certainly focused at looking 3 years down the line and not 9 months ahead.

                          Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                            I hear you Chippy, but for instance:

                            James Ryan 6'8
                            Scott Fardy 6'6
                            Devin Toner 6'10
                            Jean Kleyn 6'8
                            Donnacha Ryan 6'7
                            Dominic Bird 6'9
                            Maro Itoje 6'5
                            Will Skelton 6'8
                            George Kruis 6'6


                            We are getting to the sides where bigger players are battering us to submission, we need more guys who are huge. Can we compete with those lineouts with a 6'3 and 6'4 couple of locks? We are small as it is, Fineen might be listed as a lock and played here as a lock, would he be a lock in Racing, Sarries, Leinster?

                            Fineen is going to be a back row in the long term imo. He would be a very physical back row with a big workrate and that's where he will win Ireland caps I think.


                            Tom Ahern is 6'8. He is still filling out but I think we'll see him next season.


                            Eoin O'Connor and Paddy Kelly are about 6'7. On EOC's profile it says 6'5 but I'm not sure that's correct.


                            Those 3 with Kleyn, Snyman and Coombes coming through should add size to the pack. Then there's Hodnett who is short but a very good athlete. Jack O'Sullivan isn't big but he's a good athlete.


                            So overall if Synman signs and the 3 young locks reach their potential it will turn a weak area in a strength.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                              To confess a personal bias, I've always had an assumption that Rassie boosted JVG as a replacement to ease his release to SA.


                              This is founded on absolutely nothing :-)
                              I seem to remember David Wessels was the original front-runner for the job, and Rassie seemed surprised we went with Van Graan. At the time it sounded like Wessels was Rassie's recommendation, but I'm just going by what was reported.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by scotscor View Post
                                Not what I said, but always the version that you remember and repeat,

                                I said sometime in approximately 2011, that a long poor time was coming and that we were unlikely to win a title anytime soon and we needed to invest in the future. I think I said that we should look at if a player was over 30 and was not an international or a regular international that we should not be renewing their contracts. It might even have been less than 30 I cant remember, but it was certainly focused at looking 3 years down the line and not 9 months ahead.
                                A man of rare foresight indeed. Why didn't the powers that be listen?

                                Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                                Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                                Comment

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