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HEC R5. Racing vs. Munster. Paris. TV Coverage BT Sport. Sunday 12th Jan @3.15pm

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    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    ROG might need to think again if he's claiming Murray, Stander and POM aren't up to it. They're all Lions who have been integral to beating the ABs and winning 6Ns and GS's for Ireland. ROG was good, and part of a great HEC team, but he doesn't have their track record at the very top IMHO. Very few Irish players do.
    I'd disagree on that, ROG was top of the European game for 15 years, If they were naming a "best 15" of Europe for the last 10 years only Murray would definitely make it. ROG was commenting on a do-or-die European game, for which he's about as qualified as anyone on the planet to comment & critique.

    POM at his best is a superb player, top drawer, however he can drift out of games & his poaching threat seems to have waned. It's getting to the point where JOD is overtaking him IMO, more dynamic, more physical gainline threat, good poacher & is a menace in Lineout & maul defence, add a couple of lbs to JOD & we are laughing.

    Stander is an absolute beast, one of the hardest & most committed workers I've ever seen, but hasn't adapted to the double tackling treatment he's been receiving for about 5 years. Larkham will hopefully add a passing dimension to his game, which would keep defences honest & make him a true weapon & possibly elite, world class 8.

    I'd accept Murray has a better track record than ROG, certainly with the lions, but at club level there's not many on earth that have had the influence that ROG had on his club in the noughties.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Tobyglen View Post
      Rog talking about leaders not up to it in pivotal positions, wonder who he means?
      Holland?R Scannell?Archer? Or maybe it's the internationals like Murray, Stander and POM who can't seem to get us over the line in big games.

      No doubt the quality of player has fallen but we have been horribly coached for a number of years with some v poor appointments.
      Still can't wait for ROG to come home.
      'twas wicked yousir!

      Comment


        Originally posted by Piquet View Post
        Enlighten me, if i put a tenner on Munster at 25/1, they win, the odds go to 10/1 and I opt for the Cashout option, how much would I win?

        ish.
        I'm not sure the cashout always reflects the adjusted odds - but sometimes it is quite close(I think). So 15 multiplied by your stake and minus their 'adjustment'. It may also vary becuase I think they may allow for the ease/diffculty in you placing a fresh bet (off set) on the alterntives - which in this case is quite difficult.
        ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

        Originally Posted by mr chips
        AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

        Comment


          Reading what ROG has said, it seems he feels that the management don’t have any munster culture in them. That they didn’t live through the great days of the noughties as fans of the team. That for them it’s a job and not a passion to work for munster. If that’s the case, and I understand where he’s coming from (even though I don’t necessarily agree with it), why not bring in POC into the coaching team in some form? He’s free.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Crazyemerald View Post
            No second row cover? Can't see Jean Kleyn lasting the full 80. Presumably Fineen is still RTP but quite an indictment of DOS that POM or JOD would go into the second row. Gavin Coombes might have been a better option than Cloete
            While it might be a comment on DOS, it’s basically a game we must win so the bench has got to have every chance of enabling us to do so. JOD to second row with Botha coming on I surely a better option. I can see what you mean about Coombes vs Cloete- which damages my argument a bit

            Comment


              Originally posted by mickiemcfist View Post

              I'd disagree on that, ROG was top of the European game for 15 years, If they were naming a "best 15" of Europe for the last 10 years only Murray would definitely make it. ROG was commenting on a do-or-die European game, for which he's about as qualified as anyone on the planet to comment & critique.

              POM at his best is a superb player, top drawer, however he can drift out of games & his poaching threat seems to have waned. It's getting to the point where JOD is overtaking him IMO, more dynamic, more physical gainline threat, good poacher & is a menace in Lineout & maul defence, add a couple of lbs to JOD & we are laughing.

              Stander is an absolute beast, one of the hardest & most committed workers I've ever seen, but hasn't adapted to the double tackling treatment he's been receiving for about 5 years. Larkham will hopefully add a passing dimension to his game, which would keep defences honest & make him a true weapon & possibly elite, world class 8.

              I'd accept Murray has a better track record than ROG, certainly with the lions, but at club level there's not many on earth that have had the influence that ROG had on his club in the noughties.
              He also still goes into tackles bolt upright which makes it a lot easier to stop him, how he hasn't been told to drop the shoulder into people by now is beyond me

              Comment


                Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post
                100% we are underdogs. When we were in better form 2 years ago we traveled there as underdogs and were happy enough to come away with a losing bonus point. That day we had Keats at 10 and a disinterested Zebo at 15.

                Full team: Simon Zebo (Alex Wootton, 73); Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Rory Scannell, Keith Earls; Ian Keatley (JJ Hanrahan, 79), Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne (James Cronin, 56), Rhys Marshall (Kevin O’Byrne, 75), Stephen Archer (John Ryan, 56); Jean Kleyn, Billy Holland; Peter O’Mahony (C) (Jack O’Donoghue, 55), Chris Cloete, CJ Stander. (Hart was on the bench for Murray but didn't get on the pitch)

                I think the team that we'll put out this weekend will be as strong as the one above. We'll given them a rattle, if we come up short the world won't end and it won't mean that the squad is useless or the coaches all need to be sacked as many of the usual suspects would be saying on here (or in some cases have already started before a ball has been kicked) The Ulster game was disappointing. There are some fringe players who are playing themselves out of contract extensions (DOS, Arnold) but there are also some younger players who are starting to come through a show that they can make it (Fineen, Daly, JOS and perhaps even G Coombes at last - maybe Rowntree has gotten through to him)

                If we lose marginally we'll be out of Euope through a few fine margins to very good teams (Racing h/a, Sarries away). I'd love to have the time to drag up all of the quotes from August that said we had a group of death and that success this season would be a Pro14 win/final and bringing through a good few of the young lads.

                With all that said - I'll be travelling in hope more than expectation this weekend but I won't let that stop me roaring them on for the 80 minutes (especially as the missus mistakenly booked tickets for the middle of the "Ciel et Blanc" section). If I can make it a thoroughly unenjoyable afternoon for a few snarky Parisiens then it'll be a day well spent. SUAF. BELIEVE
                Great post.
                I think it is quite surprising our team for the weekend is so similar to the 2017 version. I feel we have changed/rotated/ developed a lot of players since then but the team sheet clearly suggests otherwise.
                Hope we go well at the weekend but feel this is too much of an ask for this team at the moment, hope I’m wrong.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by ick View Post
                  RACING 92
                  • 15. Brice Dulin,
                  • 14. Teddy Thomas,
                  • 13. Virimi Vakatawa,
                  • 12. Henry Chavancy (c),
                  • 11. Juan Imhoff,
                  • 10. Finn Russell,
                  • 9. Teddy Iribaren,
                  • 1. Eddy Ben Arous,
                  • 2. Camille Chat,
                  • 3. Ben Tameifuna,
                  • 4. Boris Palu,
                  • 5. Dominic Bird,
                  • 6. Wenceslas Lauret,
                  • 7. Bernard Le Roux,
                  • 8. Antonie Claassen.

                  Replacements:
                  • 16. Teddy Baubigny,
                  • 17. Hassane Kolingar,
                  • 18. Cedate Gomes Sa,
                  • 19. Donnacha Ryan,
                  • 20. Fabien Sanconnie,
                  • 21. Maxime Machenaud,
                  • 22. Ben Volavola,
                  • 23. Olivier Klemenczak,
                  three Teddy's and an Eddy. Random shouts of Teddy from around the stands should serve to confuse
                  "Fineen Wycherley was everywhere. When I watched this video back late on Saturday night I half expected to look up from my laptop to find him in my kitchen ' TRK Nov 3rd 2019 following Cardiff v Munster

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post

                    Seemed to me he was getting at the management team for appointing average players as so-called leaders. We know who the management team is. What I'm not sure is which average players are being made 'leaders'.
                    I think ROGs comment reads as insightful until you consider it closely- true we don’t have a colossus like POC, who mixed charm and brute force as required, nor do we have an Axel, or one or two others- but we do have leaders, and they are NOT average players (by the criteria that show that ROG wasn’t average either). We also have some average players, but as people have said above, that’s circumstance and some of them (Billy) actually seems to lead well. If we hadn’t had career ending injuries for some very promising players, a generation growing old together without a secure talent development process through the academy, and large debt and recession we wouldn’t have recruited overseas as we did. His shot at the management regarding the ethos etc is easy to make, but it’s not clear to me what they could have done better than they have. All that said I have immense time for ROG, and what he says/writes is always worth taking seriously, but this smacks of being a great quote, but light on substance.

                    Comment


                      Really looking forward to traveling over to this. We are better when we are bitter. We need to bring an intensity that will let Racing know their ‘Apres Ski’ party to celebrate qualification might take an unexpected turn from the off. Against Saracens away, Kleyn was immense in slowing the ball down. I am glad to have him back and hope that he does the same on Sunday. Bearing in mind we lost our captain just before kick off at the Allianz, I think that we really showed we could compete with them. To be fair, we showed a marked improvement from the semi final last year where we were miles behind Saracens and never really threatened bar a dodgy turnover ball leading to a Sweetnam try. So if we say that the December Saracens game was the last time we had our 1st XV playing, then progress has been made.

                      Come Sunday we need manic aggression from the off. Finn Russell needs to getting ball on the back foot with our defense set. We can’t be shoveling our ball onto JJ/CF going backwards. I remember over there 2 years ago, Earlsy slicing through their defense on front foot ball......more of the same on Sunday please.

                      All in all, if we really compete and put a performance in on Sunday I will be happy. This was always the group of death. We have not looked like we could not compete at any stage in this group. Pull a Munster performance out of the bag, like all of us know we can, and everyone saying our team is broken will change their tune in the media next week. Either way, I will proudly walk into the disco hall on Sunday wearing our red, shout as loud as I can for 80 minutes supporting the lads, proudly walk out of the disco hall and shake any Racing fans hand win, lose or draw. Always remember our support is the envy of every club in Europe. No millionaire benefactor can ever buy that.

                      Comment


                        I think ROG's leadership group comment, while clumsy, is pertinent. He wouldn't make that if something wasn't bothering him about particular players.

                        It's hard to judge from the outside if a leader is actually any good or not. Talking, being older and doing a good job looking cross has limited impact really on things that matter. For a few years now you'd question the in match intelligence and nous of the side, and that falls at your leadership group so for me it's an area of weakness.
                        "There are probably more annoying things than being hectored about African development by a wealthy Irish rock star in a cowboy hat, but I can't think of one at the moment"

                        Paul Theroux

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by busby View Post
                          I think ROG's leadership group comment, while clumsy, is pertinent. He wouldn't make that if something wasn't bothering him about particular players.

                          It's hard to judge from the outside if a leader is actually any good or not. Talking, being older and doing a good job looking cross has limited impact really on things that matter. For a few years now you'd question the in match intelligence and nous of the side, and that falls at your leadership group so for me it's an area of weakness.
                          Something may be bothering him. Doesn't mean he's right. His exact words were "people who don't know the club and the ethos put average players in positions of prominence and power".

                          Which player, currently in a positions of "prominence and power" does he deem to be "average"? Not an average leader, an "average player".

                          I see our leadership group including CJ, POM, Murray, Earls and Holland. I admire ROG hugely but, for all he achieved, I don't think he's in a position talk down to any of them bar Billy. They all have pretty stellar international careers, including things he never achieved. He had great days but he had plenty of bad ones too.

                          Who does he think should be leading the team? For the life of me I can't see any better players knocking around the squad at present.

                          Comment


                            In their hour of need, Munster can still believe

                            The pressure is on Johann van Graan’s men but they have the ability to produce a big performance
                            Gerry Thornley



                            CJ Stander: his return will boost Munster. In four rounds he has made the most carries (80) of any player in the tournament – and he has the joint highest tackle count of 66. Photograph: James Crombie/Inpho

                            Racing 92 v Munster, Paris La Defense Arena, Sunday, 4.15pm local time/3.15pm Irish - Live on BT Sport

                            The natives are restless and even some of their ex-teammates are assailing them from all angles over their form of late. They’ve just come off an ignominious beating by one of their domestic rivals and, facing a daunting assignment to keep their Heineken Champions Cup hopes alive, not many still believe.

                            In other words they’ve backed themselves into a corner again. But if history has taught us anything it is that Munster will come out swinging and produce a big European performance in time-honoured fashion.

                            The believers will have been encouraged by their team announcement, with JJ Hanrahan having overcome the hamstring injury which forced his withdrawal in the defeat by Leinster and ruled him out of that Ulster loss.

                            Furthermore, Mike Haley, Chris Farrell, Dave Kilcoyne, Stephen Archer, Jean Kleyn, Billy Holland and CJ Stander also return while, like Haley, Andrew Conway has been passed fit. Yes, Munster have only won two of their last seven matches but effectively this is the core of the side that has lost only one of six this season – a full-on, ultra-competitive game away to Saracens.

                            As expected, Simon Zebo has been ruled out of another reunion with his former team due to the broken metatarsal he sustained last week at the end of the early 60-metre counter-attack which kick-started their 27-19 win over Clermont.

                            Surprisingly, despite spooking Munster’s lineout on the last three occasions the sides have met, Donnacha Ryan has again been left on the bench. Munster won’t be sorry to see that.

                            Hence, apart from Brice Dulin at fullback, captain Henry Chavancy at inside centre, Juan Imhoff on the left wing, Wenceslas Lauret at blindside and Antonie Claassen at number eight all return.

                            But Stander and Farrell alone will give Munster’s attacking game some ballast and focal point. In four rounds Stander has made the most carries (80) of any player in the tournament – and he has the joint highest tackle count of 66.

                            Conway and Earls, who’ll hardly play as badly as he did in last weekend’s rare off-night, will relish this fast track as much as Teddy Thomas and Imhoff, admittedly a pair of world-class finishers with seven tries between them. They have also made the most line breaks, 12 and 11, of any players in the competition.

                            Collectively, this potent Racing have made the most metres (2,048), breaks (65), offloads (45) and beaten the most defenders (130) in the four rounds, but Munster have missed the fewest tackles (64) and thus have the best tackle ratio in the competition (90%). Blitzing teams

                            The early exchanges will be very informative. As Munster discovered in that semi-final in Bordeaux three seasons ago, Racing have a penchant for blitzing teams early on, and have scored the most tries in the first half, albeit Munster have only conceded two first-half tries. Although nine-point underdogs, the longer they stay with Racing, the more the odds will favour Munster.

                            Helpfully too, Munster have been here before, literally. All told, 13 of this starting line-up and another three of the match-day squad played in the corresponding fixture two seasons ago amid the bright lights, reverberating din, razzmatazz and concert-like backdrop of Racing’s indoor arena and synthetic surface. Munster left tries behind in that 34-30 defeat too.

                            Indeed, since moving into the Defense Arena in December 2017, Racing have played 34 matches there and, amid increasing evidence that visiting sides have rather come to enjoy the party too, have won 24, drawn one and lost nine.

                            They have scored freely, at a rate of 30 points per game, but concede liberally too, at a rate of 22 points per game.

                            In Europe, they have won six out of seven – their sole defeat being the 22-21 quarter-final loss at home to a Toulouse side reduced to 14 men for almost an hour last season. In these seven encounters they have averaged 36 points per game but, again, have conceded 23 per match.

                            Missed opportunities late on against Racing and Saracens, so un-Munsterlike, compound concerns about Hanrahan’s hamstring issues and the nagging similarities when their hopes ended at the same juncture in Toulon nine years ago, in Saracens in 2015, and away to Stade Francais a year later.

                            But this Munster team are primed for a bigger performance than that.

                            “I get my confidence from the group,” said Peter O’Mahony this week, “from the people around me and knowing what we’re capable of when we play well, when we perform well and our heads are in the right place.”

                            “That’s always where I get my confidence from, from the guys around me when I take to the pitch, from the training we do during the week and our preparation, and from knowing the guys, what they can do on a rugby pitch and their individual qualities, from knowing who they are and what they’re capable of.”

                            In their hour of need, Munster can still believe.

                            RACING 92: Brice Dulin; Teddy Thomas, Virimi Vakatawa, Henry Chavancy (capt), Juan Imhoff; Finn Russell, Teddy Iribaren; Eddy Ben Arous, Camille Chat, Ben Tameifuna; Boris Palu, Dominic Bird; Wenceslas Lauret, Bernard Le Roux, Antonie Claassen.

                            Replacements: Teddy Baubigny, Hassane Kolingar, Cedate Gomes Sa, Donnacha Ryan, Fabien Sanconnie, Maxime Machenaud, Ben Volavola, Olivier Klemenczak.

                            MUNSTER: Mike Haley; Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Rory Scannell, Keith Earls; JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer; Jean Kleyn, Billy Holland; Peter O’Mahony (Capt), Jack O’Donoghue, CJ Stander.

                            Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, John Ryan, Arno Botha, Chris Cloete, Craig Casey, Dan Goggin, Shane Daly.

                            Referee: Wayne Barnes (England).

                            Forecast: Munster to win.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Miles View Post
                              In their hour of need, Munster can still believe

                              The pressure is on Johann van Graan’s men but they have the ability to produce a big performance
                              Gerry Thornley



                              CJ Stander: his return will boost Munster. In four rounds he has made the most carries (80) of any player in the tournament – and he has the joint highest tackle count of 66. Photograph: James Crombie/Inpho

                              Racing 92 v Munster, Paris La Defense Arena, Sunday, 4.15pm local time/3.15pm Irish - Live on BT Sport

                              The natives are restless and even some of their ex-teammates are assailing them from all angles over their form of late. They’ve just come off an ignominious beating by one of their domestic rivals and, facing a daunting assignment to keep their Heineken Champions Cup hopes alive, not many still believe.

                              In other words they’ve backed themselves into a corner again. But if history has taught us anything it is that Munster will come out swinging and produce a big European performance in time-honoured fashion.

                              The believers will have been encouraged by their team announcement, with JJ Hanrahan having overcome the hamstring injury which forced his withdrawal in the defeat by Leinster and ruled him out of that Ulster loss.

                              Furthermore, Mike Haley, Chris Farrell, Dave Kilcoyne, Stephen Archer, Jean Kleyn, Billy Holland and CJ Stander also return while, like Haley, Andrew Conway has been passed fit. Yes, Munster have only won two of their last seven matches but effectively this is the core of the side that has lost only one of six this season – a full-on, ultra-competitive game away to Saracens.

                              As expected, Simon Zebo has been ruled out of another reunion with his former team due to the broken metatarsal he sustained last week at the end of the early 60-metre counter-attack which kick-started their 27-19 win over Clermont.

                              Surprisingly, despite spooking Munster’s lineout on the last three occasions the sides have met, Donnacha Ryan has again been left on the bench. Munster won’t be sorry to see that.

                              Hence, apart from Brice Dulin at fullback, captain Henry Chavancy at inside centre, Juan Imhoff on the left wing, Wenceslas Lauret at blindside and Antonie Claassen at number eight all return.

                              But Stander and Farrell alone will give Munster’s attacking game some ballast and focal point. In four rounds Stander has made the most carries (80) of any player in the tournament – and he has the joint highest tackle count of 66.

                              Conway and Earls, who’ll hardly play as badly as he did in last weekend’s rare off-night, will relish this fast track as much as Teddy Thomas and Imhoff, admittedly a pair of world-class finishers with seven tries between them. They have also made the most line breaks, 12 and 11, of any players in the competition.

                              Collectively, this potent Racing have made the most metres (2,048), breaks (65), offloads (45) and beaten the most defenders (130) in the four rounds, but Munster have missed the fewest tackles (64) and thus have the best tackle ratio in the competition (90%). Blitzing teams


                              The early exchanges will be very informative. As Munster discovered in that semi-final in Bordeaux three seasons ago, Racing have a penchant for blitzing teams early on, and have scored the most tries in the first half, albeit Munster have only conceded two first-half tries. Although nine-point underdogs, the longer they stay with Racing, the more the odds will favour Munster.

                              Helpfully too, Munster have been here before, literally. All told, 13 of this starting line-up and another three of the match-day squad played in the corresponding fixture two seasons ago amid the bright lights, reverberating din, razzmatazz and concert-like backdrop of Racing’s indoor arena and synthetic surface. Munster left tries behind in that 34-30 defeat too.

                              Indeed, since moving into the Defense Arena in December 2017, Racing have played 34 matches there and, amid increasing evidence that visiting sides have rather come to enjoy the party too, have won 24, drawn one and lost nine.

                              They have scored freely, at a rate of 30 points per game, but concede liberally too, at a rate of 22 points per game.

                              In Europe, they have won six out of seven – their sole defeat being the 22-21 quarter-final loss at home to a Toulouse side reduced to 14 men for almost an hour last season. In these seven encounters they have averaged 36 points per game but, again, have conceded 23 per match.

                              Missed opportunities late on against Racing and Saracens, so un-Munsterlike, compound concerns about Hanrahan’s hamstring issues and the nagging similarities when their hopes ended at the same juncture in Toulon nine years ago, in Saracens in 2015, and away to Stade Francais a year later.

                              But this Munster team are primed for a bigger performance than that.

                              “I get my confidence from the group,” said Peter O’Mahony this week, “from the people around me and knowing what we’re capable of when we play well, when we perform well and our heads are in the right place.”

                              “That’s always where I get my confidence from, from the guys around me when I take to the pitch, from the training we do during the week and our preparation, and from knowing the guys, what they can do on a rugby pitch and their individual qualities, from knowing who they are and what they’re capable of.”

                              In their hour of need, Munster can still believe.

                              RACING 92: Brice Dulin; Teddy Thomas, Virimi Vakatawa, Henry Chavancy (capt), Juan Imhoff; Finn Russell, Teddy Iribaren; Eddy Ben Arous, Camille Chat, Ben Tameifuna; Boris Palu, Dominic Bird; Wenceslas Lauret, Bernard Le Roux, Antonie Claassen.

                              Replacements: Teddy Baubigny, Hassane Kolingar, Cedate Gomes Sa, Donnacha Ryan, Fabien Sanconnie, Maxime Machenaud, Ben Volavola, Olivier Klemenczak.

                              MUNSTER: Mike Haley; Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Rory Scannell, Keith Earls; JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer; Jean Kleyn, Billy Holland; Peter O’Mahony (Capt), Jack O’Donoghue, CJ Stander.

                              Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, John Ryan, Arno Botha, Chris Cloete, Craig Casey, Dan Goggin, Shane Daly.

                              Referee: Wayne Barnes (England).

                              Forecast: Munster to win.
                              Don't tell IJWT about CJs stats quoted above......he'd have it all over the internet.
                              Anybody who sees a psychiatrist would want their head examined. &nb sp;Henry Ford

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by cornerboy View Post

                                Don't tell IJWT about CJs stats quoted above......he'd have it all over the internet.
                                Jack Conan, or Max Power, or Tea lady Doris all have better facial hair.
                                Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                                Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                                Comment

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