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  • Sea Horse
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    There will be opportunities- but these must be more than just filling in while a guy is away/injured. If you do well enough when you have the opportunity, it must be that you keep the jersey until you fall off/his training etc justifies starting ahead if you. Not, therefor, just ‘rotation’ , or being a ‘stand in’ but with a real chance of hanging onto the place. I don’t doubt that the returning 12 are likely to be the ones who win out- but we do not want to breed complacency.
    That's bang on the money for me. The 12 coming back are great and did us proud, but for any player who excelled in the early games, well I'd like to think they have a shot at keeping their spot and will not automatically rotate out.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

    Perhaps but:

    1. they certainly did not come back to Munster in good form post 6N last season

    2. As regards potential challengers:

    Daly may well challenge the back Three.

    JJ could challenge for the 10 jersey with Carbery at full back (perhaps)

    Fineen may challenge second and back rows although both CJ and POM should be secure.

    O’Byrne has looked very good this season and could challenge Scannell. .
    And of course the point is we know from previous years that when it comes to winning trophies we are not good enough. Better coaching may well help, but ultimately we want better players coming through than those who have been starting big games for us.

    Leave a comment:


  • B.A.
    replied
    Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

    Perhaps but:

    1. they certainly did not come back to Munster in good form post 6N last season

    2. As regards potential challengers:

    Daly may well challenge the back Three.

    JJ could challenge for the 10 jersey with Carbery at full back (perhaps)

    Fineen may challenge second and back rows although both CJ and POM should be secure.

    O’Byrne has looked very good this season and could challenge Scannell. .
    I think O'Byrne could definitely challenge Marshal for the no. 16 jersey. Marshal hasn't been up to his usual standards this season IMHO. Scannell is nailed on, he's probably Ireland's first choice hooker now.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Last Stand
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    Archer regularly starts ahead of Ryan, but apart from him, very few of the replacements can hold onto a jersey when the internationals come back, especially when most of them are in very good form.
    Perhaps but:

    1. they certainly did not come back to Munster in good form post 6N last season

    2. As regards potential challengers:

    Daly may well challenge the back Three.

    JJ could challenge for the 10 jersey with Carbery at full back (perhaps)

    Fineen may challenge second and back rows although both CJ and POM should be secure.

    O’Byrne has looked very good this season and could challenge Scannell. .

    Leave a comment:


  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

    No. I never said that. What I said was that there should be no entitlement to a starting place. This means being picked on merit not reputation and a culture that encourages this. I would be surprised if anyone has problems with that.
    Archer regularly starts ahead of Ryan, but apart from him, very few of the replacements can hold onto a jersey when the internationals come back, especially when most of them are in very good form.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Last Stand
    replied
    Originally posted by Sea Horse View Post

    Could be....I'm going off memory, which is never a good thing. However, reading Scotscor's post makes me think it was Stringer only who benefitted from Kidney's support in this regard.
    Kidney also dropped Stringer for O’Leary, and Payne for Hurley, and Foley for Leamy.


    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    And there are always plenty of opportunities, given player management and the 6Ns.

    There are always gonna be lads who are unlucky with their timing, coming through when we have a POM or Murray in their prime ahead of them, but those lads are getting older and there aren’t too many others at that level.

    There’ll be plenty of competition over the coming couple of seasons and class will out.

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see Fineen pushing Beirne to 6 with POM to 7, for example, or Daly pushing Farrell into 12. Then there’s the likes of Craig Casey, who may have the goods to challenge Murray in a year or two.
    There will be opportunities- but these must be more than just filling in while a guy is away/injured. If you do well enough when you have the opportunity, it must be that you keep the jersey until you fall off/his training etc justifies starting ahead if you. Not, therefor, just ‘rotation’ , or being a ‘stand in’ but with a real chance of hanging onto the place. I don’t doubt that the returning 12 are likely to be the ones who win out- but we do not want to breed complacency. I would also add that in relation to, for example back up 9/10 we need to establish the pecking order and allow it to be challenged, not just giving guys a game to keep them happy, with no real prospect of making the position your own. Would like to see Casey get a taste soon, McCarthy hasn’t torn up any trees so far, Abby is, presumably packing given that Murray finished REC without injury, so for me we should not longer be prioritising game time for him (except HCUP if still around).

    Leave a comment:


  • Sea Horse
    replied
    Originally posted by Wallyman View Post

    What Irish international half backs did Munster have in the late 90s who were kept out of the team by ROG and Stringer? We didn't play anything other than interpros and Heineken Cup back then and the provincial season was over before Christmas. You're remembering something that didn't happen.
    Could be....I'm going off memory, which is never a good thing. However, reading Scotscor's post makes me think it was Stringer only who benefitted from Kidney's support in this regard.

    Leave a comment:


  • scotscor
    replied
    brian o'meara and tom tierney were both on munsters books at the time, no international 10 though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wallyman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sea Horse View Post

    In your defence, Declan Kidney refused to drop the (very young) O'Gara and Stringer when the internationals came back. I don't have a recipe (or clue) as to how this works, but if a lad has been playing well, while the internationals are away, maybe it's not simply a given that he should be asked to step aside.

    I'm guessing this has something to do with motivation for both the player playing well and the returning international (and maybe even the wider panel, who witness it).
    What Irish international half backs did Munster have in the late 90s who were kept out of the team by ROG and Stringer? We didn't play anything other than interpros and Heineken Cup back then and the provincial season was over before Christmas. You're remembering something that didn't happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sea Horse
    replied
    Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

    No. I never said that. What I said was that there should be no entitlement to a starting place. This means being picked on merit not reputation and a culture that encourages this. I would be surprised if anyone has problems with that.
    In your defence, Declan Kidney refused to drop the (very young) O'Gara and Stringer when the internationals came back. I don't have a recipe (or clue) as to how this works, but if a lad has been playing well, while the internationals are away, maybe it's not simply a given that he should be asked to step aside.

    I'm guessing this has something to do with motivation for both the player playing well and the returning international (and maybe even the wider panel, who witness it).

    Leave a comment:


  • The Last Stand
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    The Munster players at the RWC pretty much all performed well. They’re not being picked because of past glories, they’re being picked because they’re still top class players.

    Are you gonna stick them on the bench when they come back?
    No. I never said that. What I said was that there should be no entitlement to a starting place. This means being picked on merit not reputation and a culture that encourages this. I would be surprised if anyone has problems with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    It was, but the solution isn’t disloyalty to all.

    The returning 12 should be given the opportunity, when they are ready, to show they are better they those who have been playing, but reassuring everyone that is replaced that they will have opportunities to take the jersey back.
    And there are always plenty of opportunities, given player management and the 6Ns.

    There are always gonna be lads who are unlucky with their timing, coming through when we have a POM or Murray in their prime ahead of them, but those lads are getting older and there aren’t too many others at that level.

    There’ll be plenty of competition over the coming couple of seasons and class will out.

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see Fineen pushing Beirne to 6 with POM to 7, for example, or Daly pushing Farrell into 12. Then there’s the likes of Craig Casey, who may have the goods to challenge Murray in a year or two.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

    Part of the reason Ireland were hammered in the World Cup was loyalty towards players.
    It was, but the solution isn’t disloyalty to all.

    The returning 12 should be given the opportunity, when they are ready, to show they are better they those who have been playing, but reassuring everyone that is replaced that they will have opportunities to take the jersey back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

    And the reason we won European cups in 2006 and 2008 was in many respects new players coming in.

    Part of the reason Ireland were hammered in the World Cup was loyalty towards players.
    The Munster players at the RWC pretty much all performed well. They’re not being picked because of past glories, they’re being picked because they’re still top class players.

    Are you gonna stick them on the bench when they come back?

    Leave a comment:

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