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    #31
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    I would say we hoped to win and believed we could, but there wasn’t the same sense back then that we should be winning HECs and anything less was failure.

    The reaction of many now, to a season where we made the last four in Europe and the league, is that it’s unacceptable. You get some pretty hysterical reactions to a lost game and there’s not a lot of perspective around here at times.

    For me, that’s the difference, the expectations regarding when and how we’ll reach our destination are altogether higher these days, and people are far less enthusiastic about the journey when it takes longer and proves more difficult.

    That’s the inevitable consequence of past success. It’s almost impossible to recreate that sense of hope and pride that we all felt back when Munster, and the country as a whole, was scaling the heights for the first time.
    As one of the complainers in chief I'd have to plead guilty to expressing my disappointment fairly regularly, but it's not this disappointment.

    I don't think the lack of enthusiasm has been caused by the success of the past. And I don't think that it's unacceptable that we're not winning cups.

    But what I do find unacceptable is the utter predictability of that. When we drew at Sandy Park in October I was castigated a bit for saying that it was a poor performance, and that it pointed towards an identical season to so many that have come before. I pretty much knew where we were headed in October, which has been to pretty much the same place year on year for some time now.

    I knew that in October, it came to pass, and the coaching ticket did nothing about it in the meantime.

    I'm allowing myself some optimism for next season given the changes, but you can't expect people to be on board for the journey when we're restarting the same journey for what seems to me to be the fifth time in ten years.

    McGahan-Penney-Foley-Erasmus-JVG-JVG ++

    Bar the fact that McGahan was an utter calamity, we've made no discernible or sustained progress in that time, imo.

    That's what I find frustrating. I can cope with failing. I'd just rather we were, as Beckett suggested, failing better.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



      .............That's what I find frustrating. I can cope with failing. I'd just rather we were, as Beckett suggested, failing better.
      Misquoting........putting on me pedant hat, what Beckett mostly was getting at was failing even even more disastrously. Which ironically can lead to the necessary kick in the Godots. But putting on me philosopher hat essentially implies success is empty. Ultimately.
      As all the Connacht phiilosopher boyos knew all the time. :)

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

        As one of the complainers in chief I'd have to plead guilty to expressing my disappointment fairly regularly, but it's not this disappointment.

        I don't think the lack of enthusiasm has been caused by the success of the past. And I don't think that it's unacceptable that we're not winning cups.

        But what I do find unacceptable is the utter predictability of that. When we drew at Sandy Park in October I was castigated a bit for saying that it was a poor performance, and that it pointed towards an identical season to so many that have come before. I pretty much knew where we were headed in October, which has been to pretty much the same place year on year for some time now.

        I knew that in October, it came to pass, and the coaching ticket did nothing about it in the meantime.

        I'm allowing myself some optimism for next season given the changes, but you can't expect people to be on board for the journey when we're restarting the same journey for what seems to me to be the fifth time in ten years.

        McGahan-Penney-Foley-Erasmus-JVG-JVG ++

        Bar the fact that McGahan was an utter calamity, we've made no discernible or sustained progress in that time, imo.

        That's what I find frustrating. I can cope with failing. I'd just rather we were, as Beckett suggested, failing better.
        Agree with this completely, although I certainly didn't with the your view of the Exeter away result. I'd still maintain that that day, the gale force wind, and especially the injuries in key positions made that a very good result/performance- but the in seeing that result and the manner in which it was achieved, as a harbinger of the rest of they season, you were absolutely right.

        In some senses, barring loyalty to two fine Munster players, we were fortunate that Felix and Fla left, it forced a radical re-shaping of our coaching that we might not have been brave enough, or wealthy enough, to undertake.Given the Pro14 draw, we should make that final next year, and with better performances against Saracens and Racing, some of our younger lads being consistent starters/benching, I think that would be a healthy achievement to build from for future seasons. Of course I'd like more, but realistic, rather than blind, hope would be a good start, on what I agree is yet another start of that same journey.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

          Agree with this completely, although I certainly didn't with the your view of the Exeter away result. I'd still maintain that that day, the gale force wind, and especially the injuries in key positions made that a very good result/performance- but the in seeing that result and the manner in which it was achieved, as a harbinger of the rest of they season, you were absolutely right.

          In some senses, barring loyalty to two fine Munster players, we were fortunate that Felix and Fla left, it forced a radical re-shaping of our coaching that we might not have been brave enough, or wealthy enough, to undertake.Given the Pro14 draw, we should make that final next year, and with better performances against Saracens and Racing, some of our younger lads being consistent starters/benching, I think that would be a healthy achievement to build from for future seasons. Of course I'd like more, but realistic, rather than blind, hope would be a good start, on what I agree is yet another start of that same journey.


          I thought at Sandy Park we did extremely well to get significant amounts of possession and territory. But we failed to convert that into points, and that was the failure for me.

          Plaudits for getting into the position where we could have won a tough game, but the teams we're targeting would have won that game.

          I said a few weeks ago in relation to the new ticket that I'd rather see us failing to implement a new system early in the season than successfully implementing the old one.

          There was a period with Halstead and Murphy in the run up to the Castres game years ago when it seemed that a ton of ball was being dropped, guys were overrunning passes etc but you could sense something was afoot. Then it clicked that night in Castres and we shredded them.

          I'm hoping for some "creative tension" early on next season.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by tippete7trees View Post

            Misquoting........putting on me pedant hat, what Beckett mostly was getting at was failing even even more disastrously. Which ironically can lead to the necessary kick in the Godots. But putting on me philosopher hat essentially implies success is empty. Ultimately.
            As all the Connacht phiilosopher boyos knew all the time. :)
            Jaysis man. I'm shoehorning nobel laureates into discussions of backs play. Cut me some slack :-)

            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              #36
              :)

              Comment


                #37
                POC's take (which includes a small dig at Leo)


                Coaching is the difference now in rugby. You see it with Joe Schmidt with Ireland, you see it with Eddie Jones with England, you see it with Stuart Lancaster with Leinster.

                “Good coaching is what makes the difference so if Jerry and Felix had to leave, I think they've got two very good guys to replace them.”

                "Fineen Wycherley was everywhere. When I watched this video back late on Saturday night I half expected to look up from my laptop to find him in my kitchen ' TRK Nov 3rd 2019 following Cardiff v Munster

                Comment


                  #38
                  Back in the old days, there were some thrashings (Gloucester away, Toulouse away) coupled with some amazing wins ( Gloucester, Sale at home, Toulouse in Bordeaux, Castres away)

                  We used to lose away in the first round and, as a result, need a big performance or a "Fiver" or both in the last round to progress.


                  These days, things are more even. I can't remember the last time we got a hiding away and in the last few years we've needed a win, granted, but not to the extent we needed back in the day.

                  If we did, I'm not so sure we could get it.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Its a very good interview...

                     
                    He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                      People bought into a team that lost over and over again before the massive cathartic release of the win.

                      I'm really interested in why those failures feel different now.

                      Does winning the competition shift perspective that much?
                      I think it had a lot to do with Ireland's sudden rise as an economically successful country. For those of us in the diaspora we could buy a newspaper - any newspaper - & read about peace in Northern Ireland in the news section, the economic miracle of the Celtic Tiger in the business pages and Munster touring England and France and matching or beating all comers in the Sports section.

                      There was a huge rise in confidence among Irish people everywhere and nothing crystallised that new found confidence like Munster. They were just like us, from our town or towns like ours, working their asses off and matching the best of the best. Which is what we were doing in London, Berlin, Madrid and Copenhagen at the time. It was all new, just like pro rugby, and we had a chance to compete, even though we were unheralded, we had all the usual Irish rugby virtues, especially honesty that appears to have been the key ingredient. We had permission to acknowledge failure and look it in the eye and use it to improve and then move on.

                      And more than anything else it made us proud to be who we were, especially (it seemed to me) if you were from Limerick. And we had never really felt like that before.

                      Foreigners, knowledgable folk - and even the Dublin media - came and admired. And there was nothing else like it if you were Irish at that time, apart from the economy.

                      Had we won in 2000 in Twickenham i don't know how things would have developed. That loss seemed unlucky, but unimportant in the greater scheme of announcing that we had arrived. But 2001, '02, '03 and '04 reminded us of who we were, that we had become arrogant to think we could get above ourselves. "We have no divine right to win it" Axel reminded us. But that journey then took on a life and a logic all of its own.

                      The absorption by Munster of world class foreign talent, who saw in Munster what we did; the hard work by the players be the best that they could be; the constant referencing of how other teams and nations trained and played and what could be learned from them; and the loyalty of the fans who recognised that and who came from further and further afield, all forged a relationship between fans, the team and the competition.

                      By the QF in Thomond Park when we beat the Ospreys out the gate we were already past our best though we didn't know it. Our pack and half backs won the Grand Slam with Ireland that year but Leinster had got inside our head somehow. Probably that meeting where Rob Kearney identified Ireland's problem.

                      And it coincided with the economic crash when our country was royally fcuked over by the ECB, so we now pay €7bn a year interest on the borrowing they forced on us so we could pay the debts the failed banks couldn't pay and so save Deutsche Bank.

                      The next time we could afford to travel for a game we were getting beaten by also rans. We had taken pay cuts, lost our jobs, emigrated whatever and even watching Munster was tough and our great hopes for the future, Dowling, Barry Murphy, Johnny Holland and more like them came to nought, and our heroes past all moved on.

                      Perhaps it would have been easier to live with the Munster of 2009 to 2019 if only Leinster hadn't hoovered up all the spotlight, the coverage, the money and the glory, maybe if it was Toulon or Sarries it would have been easier.

                      But to have, like poor auld Lucifer, seen the Light and then to be cast into the darkness, hurts.
                      Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                        I think it had a lot to do with Ireland's sudden rise as an economically successful country. For those of us in the diaspora we could buy a newspaper - any newspaper - & read about peace in Northern Ireland in the news section, the economic miracle of the Celtic Tiger in the business pages and Munster touring England and France and matching or beating all comers in the Sports section.

                        There was a huge rise in confidence among Irish people everywhere and nothing crystallised that new found confidence like Munster. They were just like us, from our town or towns like ours, working their asses off and matching the best of the best. Which is what we were doing in London, Berlin, Madrid and Copenhagen at the time. It was all new, just like pro rugby, and we had a chance to compete, even though we were unheralded, we had all the usual Irish rugby virtues, especially honesty that appears to have been the key ingredient. We had permission to acknowledge failure and look it in the eye and use it to improve and then move on.

                        And more than anything else it made us proud to be who we were, especially (it seemed to me) if you were from Limerick. And we had never really felt like that before.

                        Foreigners, knowledgable folk - and even the Dublin media - came and admired. And there was nothing else like it if you were Irish at that time, apart from the economy.

                        Had we won in 2000 in Twickenham i don't know how things would have developed. That loss seemed unlucky, but unimportant in the greater scheme of announcing that we had arrived. But 2001, '02, '03 and '04 reminded us of who we were, that we had become arrogant to think we could get above ourselves. "We have no divine right to win it" Axel reminded us. But that journey then took on a life and a logic all of its own.

                        The absorption by Munster of world class foreign talent, who saw in Munster what we did; the hard work by the players be the best that they could be; the constant referencing of how other teams and nations trained and played and what could be learned from them; and the loyalty of the fans who recognised that and who came from further and further afield, all forged a relationship between fans, the team and the competition.

                        By the QF in Thomond Park when we beat the Ospreys out the gate we were already past our best though we didn't know it. Our pack and half backs won the Grand Slam with Ireland that year but Leinster had got inside our head somehow. Probably that meeting where Rob Kearney identified Ireland's problem.

                        And it coincided with the economic crash when our country was royally fcuked over by the ECB, so we now pay €7bn a year interest on the borrowing they forced on us so we could pay the debts the failed banks couldn't pay and so save Deutsche Bank.

                        The next time we could afford to travel for a game we were getting beaten by also rans. We had taken pay cuts, lost our jobs, emigrated whatever and even watching Munster was tough and our great hopes for the future, Dowling, Barry Murphy, Johnny Holland and more like them came to nought, and our heroes past all moved on.

                        Perhaps it would have been easier to live with the Munster of 2009 to 2019 if only Leinster hadn't hoovered up all the spotlight, the coverage, the money and the glory, maybe if it was Toulon or Sarries it would have been easier.

                        But to have, like poor auld Lucifer, seen the Light and then to be cast into the darkness, hurts.
                        Marvellous, Rathbaner, you’ve absolutely nailed it. Another side of it was that people way beyond Munster liked our story and the passion with which we followed our team- and being liked was itself a positive for us. The story also helped sky and Heineken to build the cup’s brand. The world turned though, but it keeps turning, we will be in the sun again.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by hayeser View Post
                          They averaged over 25k for 11 Munster hurling championship games. That is some going - 11 packed Thomond's with only Munster support.
                          11 championship games. How many show up for the league? Don't get me wrong, the GAA are doing things right, but it's not exactly comparable to a Pro 14 campaign when each game is only worth 4/5 points, is it?

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                            Plus, I'm in the construction industry, we poor plebs had leprosy about June 09 and it didn't hit the public jerbs for another 18(or so) months?


                            Things in our game are insane again now. Projects everywhere


                            But, that's all beside the point. What's rare is wonderful and they were wonderful days, but going to TP or IIP is still magic today, even without the trophies. Getting to know fellas on the terraces and stands, watching the lads strive to get better every year

                            Doesn't have to lead to silverware, but progression is more important now. Rassie said you could lose with loads of scores and nobody will turn up, but keep winning boring rugby games and you'll fill the ground. I agree with that sentiment
                            Do they call you Cowboy because leprosy made all your limbs fall off and you have to travel around by horse?

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                              11 championship games. How many show up for the league? Don't get me wrong, the GAA are doing things right, but it's not exactly comparable to a Pro 14 campaign when each game is only worth 4/5 points, is it?
                              GAA league crowds have gone through the roof in recent years. Go back 20 years and they were lucky to draw a couple of thousand. Now days the Dubs average over 20k, Mayo over 10k. Kerry also averaged over 10k this year. Bearing in mind there is little away support that's massive for a county of less than 150k. Division 1 hurling games typically draw between 7 and 10k. Cork v Limerick brought 13.5k this year. The other side of the coin is Cork footballers would be lucky to draw 1,000. Generally though the league attendances are on the rise.

                              20/25 years back you might only recognize 3 or 4 names on a GAA league team now days it is typically the spine of a first team with 2/3/4 guys being tried out. There is still an it's only the league mentality. Manager's even say it after winning the league, sure this means nothing if we don't win in June! Nuts. The sponsors must be screaming!

                              In fairness the Pro14 is the opposite, but for the general public there is a sense of monotony in already inferior teams sending over second strings to meet our boys who have a load of front liners rested themselves. Unless the WC really throws things were are going to be top 2 in our conference again this year and there won't be a huge amount of excitement in getting there.

                              Comment


                                #45

                                I don't think the conference thing has helped the attraction of the league at all. Home and away, home or away, extra derby fixtures, playing against teams we're not competing with for qualification....
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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