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    #16
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    I'd agree totally. The core of everything is being competitive. And it's a great process for rugby heads.

    The bigger cut through will come again with success.
    When you look on it rationally, a lot of that hype was just event junkies. The hurlers are benefiting from it right now
    I am the million man.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

      Are you a Cowboy Builder?? :0
      I'm a cowboy bull****ter, I'll have you know
      I am the million man.

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        #18
        Cowboys Ted, cowboys.

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          #19
          best way of creating a buzz about a team is by winning something. good performances and glorious defeats are noble and will sate the appetite for only so long, I know as I'm a long time supporter of both munster rugby and limerick hurling. I want to feel that buzz again about munster rugby , we need to win something.
          Still there's a light I hold before me
          You're the measure of my dreams
          The measure of my dreams.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

            When you look on it rationally, a lot of that hype was just event junkies. The hurlers are benefiting from it right now
            Absolutely. But we need their money. And their kids playing mini rugby.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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              #21
              Originally posted by theghost View Post
              best way of creating a buzz about a team is by winning something. good performances and glorious defeats are noble and will sate the appetite for only so long, I know as I'm a long time supporter of both munster rugby and limerick hurling. I want to feel that buzz again about munster rugby , we need to win something.
              That's the thing though, and it really makes me curious about what's changed. Maybe a team can't go back once it's won something, but the whole Munster rugby narrative in the HEC was based on glorious and noble defeats. People bought into a team that lost over and over again before the massive cathartic release of the win.

              I'm really interested in why those failures feel different now.

              Does winning the competition shift perspective that much?
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                #22
                Agree, but worth noting that the winning era was preceded by many losses, but (in hindsight at least) it felt different. We didn't know whether we could get there or not, and so often an off day/bad luck/decisions that went against us, fired the hope that we could go further- the luck HAD to change (or would it?)
                Same here. For me, the inevitability feeling's only really seeped in this season where both cup and league final exits were nowhere near close to being competitive.

                Last time round we blew it against Racing for instance with a questionable full strength SA trip hangover early doors coupled with losing the heads. Still gave Leinster a rattle in the semi but that's been the high water mark as far as silverware goes. We have the squad, now hopefully an end to the deckchairs above it and a settled, experienced coaching setup can make the difference.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                  That's the thing though, and it really makes me curious about what's changed. Maybe a team can't go back once it's won something, but the whole Munster rugby narrative in the HEC was based on glorious and noble defeats. People bought into a team that lost over and over again before the massive cathartic release of the win.

                  I'm really interested in why those failures feel different now.

                  Does winning the competition shift perspective that much?
                  Balla I think the difference is that back in the 90's/00's you hadn't won the European trophy and you were desperate to win and the release of winning it was amazing but you never expected to win. Now you think that based on historical wins that you are more expectant of winning and that makes a difference to how you perceive the results especially as Leinster are the team that is beating you more often and that makes it feel worse.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                    Balla I think the difference is that back in the 90's/00's you hadn't won the European trophy and you were desperate to win and the release of winning it was amazing but you never expected to win. Now you think that based on historical wins that you are more expectant of winning and that makes a difference to how you perceive the results especially as Leinster are the team that is beating you more often and that makes it feel worse.
                    Maybe- am sure there are a range of reasons, depending on the group you are talking about. For me, the fairly realistic and stalwart Munster fan on here has realised we hadn’t kept pace with how others had improved. Last year it might almost have been (better start against Racing, and we might have gone to the final), this year the reality was pretty stark (despite two really strong signings, and that in itself made the reality all the sharper). But now, new coaches in place- maybe we are addressing the fundamental issues we had left slip.

                    It will be all the sweeter when we taste it again- and I believe we will.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                      Balla I think the difference is that back in the 90's/00's you hadn't won the European trophy and you were desperate to win and the release of winning it was amazing but you never expected to win. Now you think that based on historical wins that you are more expectant of winning and that makes a difference to how you perceive the results especially as Leinster are the team that is beating you more often and that makes it feel worse.
                      Meh

                      I dont see that 4 time winning Leinster side in the same vein as Gatland's Wasps side, Johnno's Leicester with Back, Corry, Kay etc, or the current Sarries one, Remember the really great Toulouse sides that all seemed to encapsulate an era in themselves, they would mill you up front for an hour then fall apart, then get the ball to their backline and bom, Clerc in the corner.

                      That particular wasps side was insanely good, birthplace of the rush defence in rugby union- Lawrence, Joe the Brain, Leota, Ibanez, Shaw, King, Fraser Walters, Gizzy, Lewsey, that final V toulouse with Howley robbing a try from Poitrenaud's hands will live long in my memory (was delighted to be there with about 25,000 other Munster folk). Similarly the current Sarries side is so far ahead of the pack its setting the way the game is played in Europe

                      The game had more variation back in the day, more space and smaller players. It was easier stamp your identity on a series of games whereas today its all about gridiron bosh and the largest strongest 23 wins. Nothing taken away from Leinster, but they didnt have the romance that other stories had, personally.
                      I am the million man.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                        Meh

                        I dont see that 4 time winning Leinster side in the same vein as Gatland's Wasps side, Johnno's Leicester with Back, Corry, Kay etc, or the current Sarries one, Remember the really great Toulouse sides that all seemed to encapsulate an era in themselves, they would mill you up front for an hour then fall apart, then get the ball to their backline and bom, Clerc in the corner.

                        That particular wasps side was insanely good, birthplace of the rush defence in rugby union- Lawrence, Joe the Brain, Leota, Ibanez, Shaw, King, Fraser Walters, Gizzy, Lewsey, that final V toulouse with Howley robbing a try from Poitrenaud's hands will live long in my memory (was delighted to be there with about 25,000 other Munster folk). Similarly the current Sarries side is so far ahead of the pack its setting the way the game is played in Europe

                        The game had more variation back in the day, more space and smaller players. It was easier stamp your identity on a series of games whereas today its all about gridiron bosh and the largest strongest 23 wins. Nothing taken away from Leinster, but they didnt have the romance that other stories had, personally.


                        I know what you mean re: the Leinster narrative, but I actually think their achievement has been technically comparable with any of the other teams. Largely because they're the main side I can think of who not only won repeated cups, but did it with different teams.

                        We re-tooled a bit between Halstead/Murphy and Mafi/Tipoki, but the engine of the team was very similar. Leinster have built a series of great teams, and that's impressive I think.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                          I know what you mean re: the Leinster narrative, but I actually think their achievement has been technically comparable with any of the other teams. Largely because they're the main side I can think of who not only won repeated cups, but did it with different teams.

                          We re-tooled a bit between Halstead/Murphy and Mafi/Tipoki, but the engine of the team was very similar. Leinster have built a series of great teams, and that's impressive I think.
                          At some point I’ll run the numbers- but I would be very surprised is Leinsters last decade (combined national league and HCUP positions) wasn’t comfortably ahead of everyone else, or at least most. That is a heck of an achievement, and as BB says, required building and rebuilding over that time. It has been a phenomenal achievement.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                            Balla I think the difference is that back in the 90's/00's you hadn't won the European trophy and you were desperate to win and the release of winning it was amazing but you never expected to win. Now you think that based on historical wins that you are more expectant of winning and that makes a difference to how you perceive the results especially as Leinster are the team that is beating you more often and that makes it feel worse.
                            We did expect to win though. Maybe naively, but most years it seemed we were pipped at the end of a tight game, undone by a tough draw or robbed by a refereeing call.

                            We lost two finals that could very well have gone the other way.

                            I had some doubt after Wasps at Landsdowne. That team met its demise in San Sebastian, to a large extent, but we had new guys coming through and by 2006 only half that 2004 team started the final.

                            But I was absolutely sure that the 2005/2006 team (particularly the core front 10) had a HEC in them, and it turned out that bar a few tweaks in the backs they had two.

                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              #29
                              What I havent outlined and is obvious too, is that I never want Leinster to win. When they do I usually mentally block it out

                              They've no romance or redeeming factors back home on this here ranch.
                              I am the million man.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                                We did expect to win though. Maybe naively, but most years it seemed we were pipped at the end of a tight game, undone by a tough draw or robbed by a refereeing call.

                                We lost two finals that could very well have gone the other way.

                                I had some doubt after Wasps at Landsdowne. That team met its demise in San Sebastian, to a large extent, but we had new guys coming through and by 2006 only half that 2004 team started the final.

                                But I was absolutely sure that the 2005/2006 team (particularly the core front 10) had a HEC in them, and it turned out that bar a few tweaks in the backs they had two.
                                I would say we hoped to win and believed we could, but there wasn’t the same sense back then that we should be winning HECs and anything less was failure.

                                The reaction of many now, to a season where we made the last four in Europe and the league, is that it’s unacceptable. You get some pretty hysterical reactions to a lost game and there’s not a lot of perspective around here at times.

                                For me, that’s the difference, the expectations regarding when and how we’ll reach our destination are altogether higher these days, and people are far less enthusiastic about the journey when it takes longer and proves more difficult.

                                That’s the inevitable consequence of past success. It’s almost impossible to recreate that sense of hope and pride that we all felt back when Munster, and the country as a whole, was scaling the heights for the first time.

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