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Munster Squad 2019-2020

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  • rathbaner
    replied
    Well if JVG is not up to it, let's just hope he's lucky, We're overdue some luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • AdolphusGrigson
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    Had we not had the disruption (too small a word I know) of Axel dying, Rassie leaving and taking some top class support with him, I think he might well have won something, but there are many 'ifs' there, and a 'might'. He was a winner before he came to us, and has proven since he left just how good a winner he is- so I think its a reasonable guess. JVG has a better chance this year than any other, coaches there's been a lot of investment, good settling in time, and the academy is beginning to produce a stream of guys with fantastic potential. Also, Saracens are off the radar, and Leinster will - inevitably- decline. There really wont be any excuses if Joey gets fit again and stays so, or JJ builds on last year's consistency and gets to another level....and there's another 'if' or two.
    Dont think the players were good enough for the HCup but hopefully the player quality is just about there now. Quality coaches can get you over the line in the Pro 14 like with Scarlets and Connacht - but the step up to the HCUP is too big to bridge without the right personnel.

    The Leinster game is massive as a benchmark. If hunger determines the outcome Leinster will be ate alive.

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  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    Who cares if hes the coach or not?

    look at what he has put in place:

    Prince Joey at 10
    RG and DeAllende in UL
    Got International level coaches in around him in Larkham and Rowntree


    Most tellingly though, the mothership saw it fit to lash him down to a long contract (there is still 2 years left on it right now). If HQ didn't think he had the capability they wouldn't have rewarded him. The notion a side with our scarcity of test level players is going to suddenly become champions is daft, he needs the likes of Craig Casey, Shane Daly, Fineen, Barron etc to improve on the level we've seen for the last 2 years+.

    We need the bang average local lad with one or two caps to become Irish camp regulars and then up again. IF VanGrann knows he can only coach to a level and went out to the market for coaches who increase the player median level of player from a 4 to a 7 then hes a canny ****er already

    Well, I don't know about "cares", but it matters.


    There's a note in the "DOR" piece that basically says last season doesn't count. That he gets a free pass until he had some coaches there.

    If he's the coach, then he doesn't, he's headed into his second full season and expectations shift.

    We've made some good signings. We've got good coaches in place.


    The rub of all of this is that no one, myself included, could tell you in a reasonably concise fashion what a JVG side plays like once all of this is bedded in. The DOR vs Coach debate is just a reflection of that fact really. One school of thought that says it's time to piss or get off the pot, one that says he's only actually starting his real job this season.


    The mothership gave McGahan four seasons. We haven't appointed a coach that's won anything in over a decade, and that was McGahan winning two league titles with the 2008 HEC team while falling apart in Europe. Gaffney treaded water. They made a balls of both the Penney and the Rassie situation in one way or another.

    To put it harshly, Munster rugby has had two successful coaching appointments in 22 years. And they were the same fella getting the job twice.


    So JVG's extension, in the wake of all the disruption around Rassie, is no copper bottomed seal of quality for me.



    Anyway, it's all just bar stool rambling anyway. JVG is in the seat, there's every hope the team will kick on this year under his stewardship.

    If that doesn't happen, I think he's been there long enough to be accountable.
    Last edited by Balla Boy; Yesterday, 11:44.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


    Totally agree on this season. But I think the gap is that Rassie came into a team that was touch and go to come out of groups and looked like a QF team and oversaw its shift back to a Semi Final team.

    Now, obviously over the course of a season that's the bounce of a ball.

    But for better or worse, JVG took over one of the top 4 (ok, probably 6) teams in Europe at a time that it was on an upward trajectory and looking to get back to finals and winning things.


    It's a lot of pressure, and it may not be totally rational or even fair, but I suspect that in the long run JVG's tenure will be judged against people's (largely assumptive) sense that Rassie would have won something.

    To go further, I think Rassie would have won something by now. But clearly that's pure speculation.
    Had we not had the disruption (too small a word I know) of Axel dying, Rassie leaving and taking some top class support with him, I think he might well have won something, but there are many 'ifs' there, and a 'might'. He was a winner before he came to us, and has proven since he left just how good a winner he is- so I think its a reasonable guess. JVG has a better chance this year than any other, coaches there's been a lot of investment, good settling in time, and the academy is beginning to produce a stream of guys with fantastic potential. Also, Saracens are off the radar, and Leinster will - inevitably- decline. There really wont be any excuses if Joey gets fit again and stays so, or JJ builds on last year's consistency and gets to another level....and there's another 'if' or two.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cowboy
    replied
    Who cares if hes the coach or not?

    look at what he has put in place:

    Prince Joey at 10
    RG and DeAllende in UL
    Got International level coaches in around him in Larkham and Rowntree


    Most tellingly though, the mothership saw it fit to lash him down to a long contract (there is still 2 years left on it right now). If HQ didn't think he had the capability they wouldn't have rewarded him. The notion a side with our scarcity of test level players is going to suddenly become champions is daft, he needs the likes of Craig Casey, Shane Daly, Fineen, Barron etc to improve on the level we've seen for the last 2 years+.

    We need the bang average local lad with one or two caps to become Irish camp regulars and then up again. IF VanGrann knows he can only coach to a level and went out to the market for coaches who increase the player median level of player from a 4 to a 7 then hes a canny ****er already

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by B.A. View Post
    Being honest I don't think Rassie would have won anything with us with the gameplan we had. If he had the bombsquad coming off the bench in the last 20 then maybe, but as was proven with the squad we had we always came up short at the pointy end of the competition. Our players looked like an underage team trying to overpower Sarries in the semi final. They blew us away.
    True. But at this stage he'd have had an extra 2 years on players and game plan. You're right - he might have plateaued. But when you leave somewhere on an upward trajectory, people will tend to write in the continuing trend line for you.

    I mean McGahan peaked (for me in the 2009 QF against Ospreys) plateaued and went backwards. You couldn't have predicted any of that without seeing it, really.

    Leave a comment:


  • B.A.
    replied
    Being honest I don't think Rassie would have won anything with us with the gameplan we had. If he had the bombsquad coming off the bench in the last 20 then maybe, but as was proven with the squad we had we always came up short at the pointy end of the competition. Our players looked like an underage team trying to overpower Sarries in the semi final. They blew us away.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by B.A. View Post
    At the end of the day neither Rassie nor JVG has gotten us further than the semi final in Europe so you can't say one was better than the other. JVG still has the chance to bring us further. Let's see what this season brings, all excuses are off the table now with a settled coaching staff and two major signings. This is the season he'll be judged on.

    Totally agree on this season. But I think the gap is that Rassie came into a team that was touch and go to come out of groups and looked like a QF team and oversaw its shift back to a Semi Final team.

    Now, obviously over the course of a season that's the bounce of a ball.

    But for better or worse, JVG took over one of the top 4 (ok, probably 6) teams in Europe at a time that it was on an upward trajectory and looking to get back to finals and winning things.


    It's a lot of pressure, and it may not be totally rational or even fair, but I suspect that in the long run JVG's tenure will be judged against people's (largely assumptive) sense that Rassie would have won something.

    To go further, I think Rassie would have won something by now. But clearly that's pure speculation.

    Leave a comment:


  • B.A.
    replied
    At the end of the day neither Rassie nor JVG has gotten us further than the semi final in Europe so you can't say one was better than the other. JVG still has the chance to bring us further. Let's see what this season brings, all excuses are off the table now with a settled coaching staff and two major signings. This is the season he'll be judged on.


    Another point to note is that for the first time, our academy has started producing players who look capable of stepping up and contributing in critical positions. I don't know if this is attributable to Van Graan or not but it bodes very well for the future.
    Last edited by B.A.; Yesterday, 09:10.

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  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    What would you expect to happen when a team suddenly loses three senior coaches within a season? You can’t just replace them en bloc. The priority is to replace the top man, then let him rebuild his team based on his assessment of what he needs. That’s always going to take some time.

    The way I see it, they replaced Rassie, then let JVG get on with the rebuild, and I don’t see what you have to complain about given the strength of the coaches he brought in. No sign of him feeling threatened by others.

    Plenty of DoRs don’t have huge experience. Cullen and Humphreys had far less. You’re downplaying Van Graan’s experience by pointing out his age but he’s been coaching in one capacity or another since 2004. He came up through Currie Cup, then Super Rugby (three titles by the way), then international rugby. He didn’t have Rassie’s CV but he was hardly some kid who’d only just started out.


    I'd expect a team that didn't have a head coach to appoint a head coach. If they appointed a DOR, I'd expect him to appoint a head coach straight away.


    That didn't happen because JVG isn't our Director of Rugby. He was announced as Head Coach, his job title is still Head Coach.

    In Snyman's interview this week, he said: "“The biggest reason I came here was coach Johann. I’ve worked with him in the past and I know the quality of coach he is. I haven’t worked under him that much before, even though I know him a long time. But I do know that he’s a quality coach"


    That seems pretty coachy to me.


    The idea that he's a "Director of Rugby type" has largely been invented in social media forums and public bars to cover for the fact that we're not able to say an awful lot about his coaching.

    And that's not surprising, because in comparison to the McGahan, Penney and Erasmus eras, it's not easy to find any of the senior players saying anything substantive about the coaching approach or philosophy either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    I just don't buy it.


    Erasmus arrived with Foley in situ, having been a head coach since 2004, and DoR of Western Province, Head Coach of Stormers, and GM of High Performance for South Africa.


    So to replace him, we appointed a guy in his late 30s who'd never been head coach of anything, and had most recently been the Boks forward coach, put him in situ with a hugely inexperienced coaching ticket and left everyone holding themselves for a year while we fixed it?


    Appointing Unit coaches and signing players doesn't make you a DoR.

    If he is a DoR, he's achieved it without ever being a head coach, and having last won anything as an attack coach a decade ago.


    We're constructing a narrative retrospectively. He never had the CV for a DoR post. We could just as easily argue that Larkham has been brought in to save him in the same way that Lancaster was lashed to Plug to stop him sinking.
    What would you expect to happen when a team suddenly loses three senior coaches within a season? You can’t just replace them en bloc. The priority is to replace the top man, then let him rebuild his team based on his assessment of what he needs. That’s always going to take some time.

    The way I see it, they replaced Rassie, then let JVG get on with the rebuild, and I don’t see what you have to complain about given the strength of the coaches he brought in. No sign of him feeling threatened by others.

    Plenty of DoRs don’t have huge experience. Cullen and Humphreys had far less. You’re downplaying Van Graan’s experience by pointing out his age but he’s been coaching in one capacity or another since 2004. He came up through Currie Cup, then Super Rugby (three titles by the way), then international rugby. He didn’t have Rassie’s CV but he was hardly some kid who’d only just started out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    Agree with you really- and if you look at match day During the game he is evidently in the centre of the coaches and the one the others defer to, hence head coach, rather than more of a back room/strategic role including, but well beyond, the first team on match day. Head coach, or DoR I don’t mind as long as it works, the problems come when you have to decide who to sack because it’s not. It may also be a personal style thing, preferring a cabinet style rather than dictator.


    Absolutely. And it's not meant as an attack or anything. It's just that everything about the guy's career to date suggests that he's a hands on, technical coach who gets into the detail.

    And so he needs to be assessed as such. It's great that he's built a strong team around him. When Cheika finally won the Heineken Cup, he did so with a former Munster head coach as his assistant, who'd been DOR at Sarries in between. It's a good thing to surround yourself with experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    I just don't buy it.


    Erasmus arrived with Foley in situ, having been a head coach since 2004, and DoR of Western Province, Head Coach of Stormers, and GM of High Performance for South Africa.


    So to replace him, we appointed a guy in his late 30s who'd never been head coach of anything, and had most recently been the Boks forward coach, put him in situ with a hugely inexperienced coaching ticket and left everyone holding themselves for a year while we fixed it?


    Appointing Unit coaches and signing players doesn't make you a DoR.

    If he is a DoR, he's achieved it without ever being a head coach, and having last won anything as an attack coach a decade ago.


    We're constructing a narrative retrospectively. He never had the CV for a DoR post. We could just as easily argue that Larkham has been brought in to save him in the same way that Lancaster was lashed to Plug to stop him sinking.
    Agree with you really- and if you look at match day During the game he is evidently in the centre of the coaches and the one the others defer to, hence head coach, rather than more of a back room/strategic role including, but well beyond, the first team on match day. Head coach, or DoR I don’t mind as long as it works, the problems come when you have to decide who to sack because it’s not. It may also be a personal style thing, preferring a cabinet style rather than dictator.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    Rassie was supposed to be a DoR type figure, but then tragically lost Axel and had to get more stuck inTo on field coaching for the season. When he left I think JVG was recruited with the intention of him playing a similar DoR role and building an experienced team around him, which he did. He also set about strengthening the squad pretty quickly and has done that too.

    As a DoR, I think he’s already shown his stuff. Luring Larkham, Rowntree, Carbery, Snyman and De Allende to Munster is pretty good work. Leinster weren’t too happy to lose Salanoa either.


    I just don't buy it.


    Erasmus arrived with Foley in situ, having been a head coach since 2004, and DoR of Western Province, Head Coach of Stormers, and GM of High Performance for South Africa.


    So to replace him, we appointed a guy in his late 30s who'd never been head coach of anything, and had most recently been the Boks forward coach, put him in situ with a hugely inexperienced coaching ticket and left everyone holding themselves for a year while we fixed it?


    Appointing Unit coaches and signing players doesn't make you a DoR.

    If he is a DoR, he's achieved it without ever being a head coach, and having last won anything as an attack coach a decade ago.


    We're constructing a narrative retrospectively. He never had the CV for a DoR post. We could just as easily argue that Larkham has been brought in to save him in the same way that Lancaster was lashed to Plug to stop him sinking.

    Leave a comment:


  • AdolphusGrigson
    replied
    On 'paper' Munster must have the best forwards and backs coaching combo in Europe so Van did will be under pressure to deliver this year- but Munster whilst arguably moving into the top tier of teams in Europe (with Saracens dropping out) need to overtake Leinster - who block the way to silverware.

    The upcoming game(s) against Lienster will surely be the most competitive and compelling for a very long time with fans expectations now that a victory is required. Bookies (PP) dont quite see it that way, with Lienster -9 in the handicap betting.

    Leave a comment:

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