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Munster Squad 2019-2020

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    Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
    So all being fit we'd be looking at something like

    1. Kilcoyne (Loughman)
    2. Marshall (O'Byrne)
    3. Ryan (Knox)
    4. Tadgh Beirne
    5. 'RPG' Snyman
    6. Pete
    7. Jack O'D
    8. CJ
    9. Murray
    10. Carbery
    11. Earls
    12. de Allende
    13. Farrell
    14. Conway
    15. Gallagher

    Kleyn, Tommy, Rory and JJ cover everything with the possible exception of scrumhalf.
    Good carrying power at centre, lock and front row and the ability to mix it up, as and when, with ball players at hooker and lock. And look at the talent left out! Hodnett, Cloete, Billy, Cronin ...astonishing
    Looks weak.
    Stand up for the Ulcer men

    Comment


      It’s a very fine squad, there’s no doubt about that- a consistently fit Joey, and we’d given anyone a game- but, despite a better year for JJ than he’s ever had, for me the issue is at 10.

      Comment


        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
        It’s a very fine squad, there’s no doubt about that- a consistently fit Joey, and we’d given anyone a game- but, despite a better year for JJ than he’s ever had, for me the issue is at 10.
        I’m not concerned about 10 to be honest. Between Carbery and JJ, plus Healy, Flannery and Crowley, we’ll be ok. This season will be touch and go but in the next couple of years it will be an area of real strength IMHO.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

          I’m not concerned about 10 to be honest. Between Carbery and JJ, plus Healy, Flannery and Crowley, we’ll be ok. This season will be touch and go but in the next couple of years it will be an area of real strength IMHO.
          Agree the pipeline looks reassuring, but we need a Murray for the young lads’ Casey. Perhaps the attacking threat of de Allende will provide more space and options for JJ.

          Comment


            Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
            It’s a very fine squad, there’s no doubt about that- a consistently fit Joey, and we’d given anyone a game- but, despite a better year for JJ than he’s ever had, for me the issue is at 10.
            JJ is only what, 28 ? That's not terribly old. Cooney only started lighting it up at around that age for Ulster, so writing him off as a "not quite has been" but still decent can be a bit premature. I think we'll see even more out of him this coming season. For me, he isn't the main issue, 9 is. Murray has to step it up or step aside if his run of inconsistent play continues. No more excuses for his drop in form; it has been going on for far too long.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

              JJ is only what, 28 ? That's not terribly old. Cooney only started lighting it up at around that age for Ulster, so writing him off as a "not quite has been" but still decent can be a bit premature. I think we'll see even more out of him this coming season. For me, he isn't the main issue, 9 is. Murray has to step it up or step aside if his run of inconsistent play continues. No more excuses for his drop in form; it has been going on for far too long.
              I don’t want to write him off- and he had a very solid season last year. He has really worked on his place kicking, and last year he was something he has never really been - consistent. As a younger player he was a mercurial talent, and for me at least mixed the sublime with the awful. That couldn’t work longterm, and so the more consistent, silly error free, style is very welcome. However, few here see him as a top ten, but hopefully he can build from the solid foundations he built last year. I think this will be a big year from Murray, he knows, I’d say, better than anyone that he has lost ground from the world class 9 he was, and without the strictures of the uncle joe era, I think we will see a different player this year, behind a pack that will produce clean fast ball.

              Comment


                Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
                Gents i think you maybe getting sidetracked slightly by the backrow when looking at the forwards. The back row itself contains two test Lions (one a test captain) and is the one area in the national team where Munster have consistently have more than their fair share of representation over the last few years. Given our options with CJ and POM i think we could afford to accommodate a non international forward into the back row IF, and thats a huge IF, the tight five was comparable.

                Of the tight five only Killer is what would be close to being considered to a regular international starter. The rest of the tight five are all solid good pro's who do a terrific job for Munster but haven't made the green jersey their own. Thats the area that needs to be fixed. We need Knox, Salanoa, Wycherley, Ahern, etc and a hooker to really start pushing for international honours to upgrade our pack further.

                Synman will obviously be a huge boost but as we've seen too many times in the past we can't win trophies if we don't have parity or better upfront and is a change at openside going to do that?


                I agree that the front 5 is key. If I'm optimistic, then Killer, Beirne, Snyman sort a bit of that, Ahern and Wycherly step up. Kleyn can do the heavy lifting but doesn't bring dynamism for me. Tighthead is a big hole, and we need a hooker to make a big push.

                Even if all that comes together though, I worry. We have a lot of quality back rows. But they're mostly 6/8s. I think the idea of POM to 7 is tossed around here far too lightly at this point in his career. IF TOD could stay fit for a season I'm totally happy - I think he's an incredibly under-rated player. Or maybe we sort out whatever is going on with Cloete.

                But it seems to be that we have 2 7's, one of whom is often injured and the other with a face that doesn't seem to fit. That's a worry, particularly with the new breakdown interpretations.

                I guess for me it's an accumulative problem. Issues at 2 and 3, not really knowing what the plan is at lock (knowing that it would be Kleyn that makes way for me), and then the question at 7.




                People are talking about "best squad since whenever"...in Montpellier in 2013 we put out:


                Killer/Sherry/Botha

                POC/DOC

                POM/TOD/Coughlan



                Semi Final against Sarries in 2017:

                Killer/Scannell/Ryan

                D. Ryan/Holland

                POM/TOD/Stander




                In signing Snyman, we have a lock to replace the loss of Ryan. But I'm struggling with the idea that we've made some sort of quantum leap on where we've been.

                When push comes to shove, with everyone fit, 6 of the 8 who took the field in the semi against Sarries in 2017 will be starting in the spring of 2021.

                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
                  Gents i think you maybe getting sidetracked slightly by the backrow when looking at the forwards. The back row itself contains two test Lions (one a test captain) and is the one area in the national team where Munster have consistently have more than their fair share of representation over the last few years. Given our options with CJ and POM i think we could afford to accommodate a non international forward into the back row IF, and thats a huge IF, the tight five was comparable.

                  Of the tight five only Killer is what would be close to being considered to a regular international starter. The rest of the tight five are all solid good pro's who do a terrific job for Munster but haven't made the green jersey their own. Thats the area that needs to be fixed. We need Knox, Salanoa, Wycherley, Ahern, etc and a hooker to really start pushing for international honours to upgrade our pack further.

                  Synman will obviously be a huge boost but as we've seen too many times in the past we can't win trophies if we don't have parity or better upfront and is a change at openside going to do that?
                  This is key, and its why I would be hoping VanGraan can woo a bit more heft down from Shelbyville in the back row. I am all for breeding our own players but as a thought experiment: does anyone think a fit and firing Cloete or Hodnett are going to start in that Leinster side? (I would be erring toward saying when you compare them to the brutality of SOB, Leavy, Doris and Connors its a tall ask)

                  We havent a mahoosive tight five, we need as many mahoosive players from 1-15 to try and even up the deficit. I'd love to see Cloete and Hodnett excel, I am wary they are not large enough for a HEC semi final level and beyond.
                  I am the million man.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post
                    It could easily be Haley at 15 too, he looked great at times last season. Good to have him and Gallagher competing for a starting place. Conway is excellent at 15 too when ever we need him. Sweetnam competing hard for a wing spot too
                    I'd say Gallagher's size gives him the edge, all things being equal.
                    Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                      In signing Snyman, we have a lock to replace the loss of Ryan. But I'm struggling with the idea that we've made some sort of quantum leap on where we've been.

                      When push comes to shove, with everyone fit, 6 of the 8 who took the field in the semi against Sarries in 2017 will be starting in the spring of 2021.
                      We only had CJ & Killer to carry with any hope of breaking the gainline back then. Once they were shut down we had no one left to challenge their line.

                      It would have been nice to see them double team CJ and then watch Killer take it up and take another two defenders out, then De Allende take it up and another two gone, then Snyman smash it up then Farrell coming around the corner for a handy offload to put Earls or Gallagher through a gap. :-)

                      Size matters.
                      Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
                        We only had CJ & Killer to carry with any hope of breaking the gainline back then. Once they were shut down we had no one left to challenge their line.

                        It would have been nice to see them double team CJ and then watch Killer take it up and take another two defenders out, then De Allende take it up and another two gone, then Snyman smash it up then Farrell coming around the corner for a handy offload to put Earls or Gallagher through a gap. :-)

                        Size matters.


                        One of the reasons I'd rather see us pairing Beirne and Snyman in the row this year is to increase those carrying options. Particularly with breakdown interpretations that are going to make it more and more important to keep the ball alive and moving. Bad carriers are going to get jackled all day this year.

                        We do have more heft in the centre now, it's true.

                        My hope is that TOD has a good run with injuries (I think he's a very effective tight carrier when he's on form - he just seems to keep going), and one of our hookers puts down a big claim early on. That could tip the balance.

                        But it won't happen without existing personnel delivering above where they have been for the last couple of seasons.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                          But it won't happen without existing personnel delivering above where they have been for the last couple of seasons.
                          Yes but you'd have to think the coaching team of this calibre will bring something new to the squad performances this season.

                          For the past decade or so, this has been the best part of the season, just before it starts, and then it's pretty much all downhill from there with a few flashes of brilliance. But this season .....!!
                          Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                            I'd say Gallagher's size gives him the edge, all things being equal.
                            But we have no idea if all things are equal. I'd hold off until actually seeing Gallagher perform before putting him ahead of anyone.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
                              Yes but you'd have to think the coaching team of this calibre will bring something new to the squad performances this season.

                              For the past decade or so, this has been the best part of the season, just before it starts, and then it's pretty much all downhill from there with a few flashes of brilliance. But this season .....!!


                              I hope so. I don't want to sound unrelentingly negative, but again I don't think we have a significantly better ticket than we had with Erasmus/Foley, or with Erasmus/Nienaber/Flannery/Jones.

                              Though that's largely down to my continued agnosticism about JVG. I still don't really get what he's about.

                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                                I hope so. I don't want to sound unrelentingly negative, but again I don't think we have a significantly better ticket than we had with Erasmus/Foley, or with Erasmus/Nienaber/Flannery/Jones.

                                Though that's largely down to my continued agnosticism about JVG. I still don't really get what he's about.
                                Think we should find out what the coaching team are trying to bring to the table in the opening fixture. Almost a full pre-season with all the international players singing off the same hymn sheet. Not expecting a big result or a flawless performance, but hopefully we see some semblance of an attacking structure that they have been working on.

                                Comment

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