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    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    All the talk about balance in the pack, its all a hat of crabs if we cant improve our accuracy around the ruck.

    You put CJ and Tadhg Beirne on the front foot and we WILL score tries from distance, we've a handful of these guys right now already.

    Unlocking top opposition is entirely dependent on 14 players melting every ruck and giving the ball to murray in seconds.

    Heavy carriers are impotent without clean fast ball IMO. We've two options in attack, wear down the opposition defence till it cracks, or run them ragged till it tears. Both are dependent on fast ruck work all game.


    But there's no fast ball without hard carriers. It doesn't matter how aggressively we're intending to clear if our ball carrier is being double teamed and driven back on his arse, past his supporting runners. And it happens over and over.

    You can only melt rucks if your carriers are winning collisions, or using their feet to get around the corner.

    Right now we go to 2 carriers, generally, and they get picked off because defences are waiting for them, often on alternating rucks where the other one is at the bottom.

    A lot easier to stretch defences when they know anyone one of two or three options might take it on, and much easier to clear the ruck when the defence is having to react on the hoof and, most importantly, go back through the gate.

    So much, to my eye at least, comes down to where that gate is. Against top teams we see our carriers stopped early, and support players having to check their runs or even going back round to enter, while the defending team are pouring through from onside because their tacklers have made ground.

    Carry hard - win the collision or beat the man - get the ruck set out in front of your support - clear out much more aggressively.


    I suspect an awful lot of our seemingly ineffective rucking is coming because we're going astray at steps 1 and 2.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

      For me, Alby, Strings and now the heir apparent are busy busy players, and it is / was great to see them play - but Murray is a class apart, has the elegance and extra time a class player in any sport seems to have. Injury and form have raised reasonable questions about him over the last couple of years, but with the improved speed and cleanliness of the ball our pack will win this year I’m hoping we will see the real Murray again. A consistent on form 10 outside him won’t hurt either.
      Once the box kicking became nullified as part of Munster's and Ireland's attack; he needed to do something different in other aspects of his game. He generally hasn't for the most part and it shows. He isn't a busy scrum half, and that's what you need in today's game. Look at the top ones in the game, Smith, DeKlerk, DuPont. They are all dynamic players who seem to be constantly moving quickly. Nic White was giving the Saracens fits in the last premiership final; they couldn't cope with him being quick on the ball and occasionally taking it himself for carries. Their vaunted line speed was nullified in large part b/c he was getting the ball out faster than they could get back onside and set. You don't get that with Murray at this stage and it hurts the teams he plays on. Great, he can box kick, too bad they won't 9/10 of them back b/c the chasers are shepherded away from the ball.

      As for him not getting dropped, you don't have to look far to see guys not performing who retain their places. It gets to a point that these guys know they aren't getting dropped. The Toner thing was "shocking" for some reason, but in reality, it was not b/c he isn't a test lock anymore. Stockdale's defense has been really poor at times, yet he is a shoe in for some reason. Rory Best could play like absolute muck and still was the starter for Ireland at an advanced age, same goes for Sexton. People banged on Kearney, but I don't think he was ever that bad, he just wasn't an explosive runner with the ball as he aged. I hate to slam these guys, but it does get infuriating when poor performance is seemingly ignored b/c of who a player is. One poor game isn't a reason to get dropped, but a dip in form for more than a season is too much for a player not to be dropped.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

        Once the box kicking became nullified as part of Munster's and Ireland's attack; he needed to do something different in other aspects of his game. He generally hasn't for the most part and it shows. He isn't a busy scrum half, and that's what you need in today's game. Look at the top ones in the game, Smith, DeKlerk, DuPont. They are all dynamic players who seem to be constantly moving quickly. Nic White was giving the Saracens fits in the last premiership final; they couldn't cope with him being quick on the ball and occasionally taking it himself for carries. Their vaunted line speed was nullified in large part b/c he was getting the ball out faster than they could get back onside and set. You don't get that with Murray at this stage and it hurts the teams he plays on. Great, he can box kick, too bad they won't 9/10 of them back b/c the chasers are shepherded away from the ball.

        As for him not getting dropped, you don't have to look far to see guys not performing who retain their places. It gets to a point that these guys know they aren't getting dropped. The Toner thing was "shocking" for some reason, but in reality, it was not b/c he isn't a test lock anymore. Stockdale's defense has been really poor at times, yet he is a shoe in for some reason. Rory Best could play like absolute muck and still was the starter for Ireland at an advanced age, same goes for Sexton. People banged on Kearney, but I don't think he was ever that bad, he just wasn't an explosive runner with the ball as he aged. I hate to slam these guys, but it does get infuriating when poor performance is seemingly ignored b/c of who a player is. One poor game isn't a reason to get dropped, but a dip in form for more than a season is too much for a player not to be dropped.


        I'm just not convinced. He's had contenders with both Ireland and Munster who do exactly what you spell out, and two coaches looking for results, and neither have made the switch.

        I think he has the capacity to vary his game, and would still say that the dip is down to recovery from injury and the fact that both packs he plays behind have struggled significantly in key games over the last 18 months.

        I think the last sentence sums it up. Any player at his level can up the pace of his game. Particularly if he's under coaching instruction to do so.

        The idea that he can't, or is just refusing to, and coaches are watching, and his teams are underachieving, and he has replacements who'll do just what you're saying on the bench, and he's still in the shirt....Occam's razor just won't let me buy it.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

          Once the box kicking became nullified as part of Munster's and Ireland's attack; he needed to do something different in other aspects of his game. He generally hasn't for the most part and it shows. He isn't a busy scrum half, and that's what you need in today's game. Look at the top ones in the game, Smith, DeKlerk, DuPont. They are all dynamic players who seem to be constantly moving quickly. Nic White was giving the Saracens fits in the last premiership final; they couldn't cope with him being quick on the ball and occasionally taking it himself for carries. Their vaunted line speed was nullified in large part b/c he was getting the ball out faster than they could get back onside and set. You don't get that with Murray at this stage and it hurts the teams he plays on. Great, he can box kick, too bad they won't 9/10 of them back b/c the chasers are shepherded away from the ball.

          As for him not getting dropped, you don't have to look far to see guys not performing who retain their places. It gets to a point that these guys know they aren't getting dropped. The Toner thing was "shocking" for some reason, but in reality, it was not b/c he isn't a test lock anymore. Stockdale's defense has been really poor at times, yet he is a shoe in for some reason. Rory Best could play like absolute muck and still was the starter for Ireland at an advanced age, same goes for Sexton. People banged on Kearney, but I don't think he was ever that bad, he just wasn't an explosive runner with the ball as he aged. I hate to slam these guys, but it does get infuriating when poor performance is seemingly ignored b/c of who a player is. One poor game isn't a reason to get dropped, but a dip in form for more than a season is too much for a player not to be dropped.


          On the White thing - he was able to do that because Exeter's pack matched Sarries, in the same way that they suffocated ours at Thomond. It didn't happen just because the scrum half hurried up a bit.

          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment




            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



            I'm just not convinced. He's had contenders with both Ireland and Munster who do exactly what you spell out, and two coaches looking for results, and neither have made the switch.

            I think he has the capacity to vary his game, and would still say that the dip is down to recovery from injury and the fact that both packs he plays behind have struggled significantly in key games over the last 18 months.

            I think the last sentence sums it up. Any player at his level can up the pace of his game. Particularly if he's under coaching instruction to do so.

            The idea that he can't, or is just refusing to, and coaches are watching, and his teams are underachieving, and he has replacements who'll do just what you're saying on the bench, and he's still in the shirt....Occam's razor just won't let me buy it.
            The same logic would have applied to Rob Kearney also

            Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

            Comment


              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



              I'm just not convinced. He's had contenders with both Ireland and Munster who do exactly what you spell out, and two coaches looking for results, and neither have made the switch.

              I think he has the capacity to vary his game, and would still say that the dip is down to recovery from injury and the fact that both packs he plays behind have struggled significantly in key games over the last 18 months.

              I think the last sentence sums it up. Any player at his level can up the pace of his game. Particularly if he's under coaching instruction to do so.

              The idea that he can't, or is just refusing to, and coaches are watching, and his teams are underachieving, and he has replacements who'll do just what you're saying on the bench, and he's still in the shirt....Occam's razor just won't let me buy it.
              Agree with all of that- when we played top teams we rarely won up front, and were predictable in the backs. Murray’s box kicking, and excellent chasing was a god send- but that tactic has been rumbled . I like to see a SH have a good break in his armoury, as it takes the heat off 10, and that has been less to the fore in Murray’s game- probably for all the reasons above. There’s no doubt Casey offers a very different option- and it will be great for us to have test coming through- just as it was to have alby coming on- but with our re/unforced pack, carbery fit at 20 and de Allende at 12, I think we will see a very different Murray.

              Comment


                Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                Agree with all of that- when we played top teams we rarely won up front, and were predictable in the backs. Murray’s box kicking, and excellent chasing was a god send- but that tactic has been rumbled . I like to see a SH have a good break in his armoury, as it takes the heat off 10, and that has been less to the fore in Murray’s game- probably for all the reasons above. There’s no doubt Casey offers a very different option- and it will be great for us to have test coming through- just as it was to have alby coming on- but with our re/unforced pack, carbery fit at 20 and de Allende at 12, I think we will see a very different Murray.
                Arguably Murrary has less need to change his game now - when you have a more dominant pack - then there is less need for variation as teams might know what is coming but cant stop it anyway.
                ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                Originally Posted by mr chips
                AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                Comment


                  Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post



                  The same logic would have applied to Rob Kearney also

                  Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


                  I was always very clear in my view that Kearney must have brought something to the team that his coaches felt outweighed his visible inability to run, pass or tackle.
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                    Agree with all of that- when we played top teams we rarely won up front, and were predictable in the backs. Murray’s box kicking, and excellent chasing was a god send- but that tactic has been rumbled . I like to see a SH have a good break in his armoury, as it takes the heat off 10, and that has been less to the fore in Murray’s game- probably for all the reasons above. There’s no doubt Casey offers a very different option- and it will be great for us to have test coming through- just as it was to have alby coming on- but with our re/unforced pack, carbery fit at 20 and de Allende at 12, I think we will see a very different Murray.


                    I hope so. I'm no partisan defender of his. I just think we'll be better placed to judge when we see him playing in a side that can sustain forward momentum for three or four phases. I've always felt he's actually at his best when a game opens up. He has that Mike Phillips style ability to pop up as a runner if a pack is able to get on the front foot and pop it off a bit.

                    Once we have a midfield and a pack that can generate situations where he's arriving at fast ruck ball with options, then I think we'll see what he's about again.

                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      A gallery of pics from training this week, CJ hard at it in the gym before next week's down week

                      https://www.munsterrugby.ie/gallery/...ng-17-07-2020/

                      Comment


                        Niall Scannell looking very lean and fit in those photos!!!
                        "Fineen Wycherley was everywhere. When I watched this video back late on Saturday night I half expected to look up from my laptop to find him in my kitchen ' TRK Nov 3rd 2019 following Cardiff v Munster

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by FORWARD.... View Post
                          Niall Scannell looking very lean and fit in those photos!!!
                          Fineen looks like he’s been putting in the work too! Looks ripped...


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          \"In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane\"

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                            I'm just not convinced. He's had contenders with both Ireland and Munster who do exactly what you spell out, and two coaches looking for results, and neither have made the switch.

                            I think he has the capacity to vary his game, and would still say that the dip is down to recovery from injury and the fact that both packs he plays behind have struggled significantly in key games over the last 18 months.

                            I think the last sentence sums it up. Any player at his level can up the pace of his game. Particularly if he's under coaching instruction to do so.

                            The idea that he can't, or is just refusing to, and coaches are watching, and his teams are underachieving, and he has replacements who'll do just what you're saying on the bench, and he's still in the shirt....Occam's razor just won't let me buy it.
                            Contenders with Ireland and Munster who weren't on central contracts. The IRFU wasn't going to just eat that money and pay it to a bench player or a player who didn't make the national squad b/c his form had dipped that low. The fact that Murray was picked over Cooney for the WC and this past 6N was a flat out disgrace. There was zero justification for it. Cooney has been the form 9 in Ireland for long enough for him to take the jersey from a Murray who peaked in 2018 and has been downhill since. As for coaching instruction, is it some odd coincidence that whenever any other 9 came on, the pace sped up ? It happened whether the other player was starting or replacing Murray, they almost all sped things up or at least attempted to. Murray is a shell of his former self, just like Sexton is. They can give you the odd game here and there where they look like they've got it together, but they get found out b/c they've become far too predictable. The box kicks and the loop plays aren't working, find something else.

                            As for Nic White, putting that that down to the exeter pack matching sarries is overly simplistic. Sarries didn't have that extra second or two that Murray takes when he waltzes up to the ruck. White got on the ball and got it out in a way that Murray generally doesn't. Sarries knew that Murray was going to take forever to get the ball away or that he was going to put up a useless kick. They just knew it b/c they watched the tape. White doesn't do that and they had to be prepared for that and he caused them issues in a way Murray never could b/c of they style he plays these days, slow as molasses. It isn't a secret that he has been slow for the most part for the past 18 months. There is an urgency there other 9s that you just don't see with Murray these days. His first thought is box kick, and that is done and dusted. It is over as an effective tactic.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                              Contenders with Ireland and Munster who weren't on central contracts. The IRFU wasn't going to just eat that money and pay it to a bench player or a player who didn't make the national squad b/c his form had dipped that low. The fact that Murray was picked over Cooney for the WC and this past 6N was a flat out disgrace. There was zero justification for it. Cooney has been the form 9 in Ireland for long enough for him to take the jersey from a Murray who peaked in 2018 and has been downhill since. As for coaching instruction, is it some odd coincidence that whenever any other 9 came on, the pace sped up ? It happened whether the other player was starting or replacing Murray, they almost all sped things up or at least attempted to. Murray is a shell of his former self, just like Sexton is. They can give you the odd game here and there where they look like they've got it together, but they get found out b/c they've become far too predictable. The box kicks and the loop plays aren't working, find something else.

                              As for Nic White, putting that that down to the exeter pack matching sarries is overly simplistic. Sarries didn't have that extra second or two that Murray takes when he waltzes up to the ruck. White got on the ball and got it out in a way that Murray generally doesn't. Sarries knew that Murray was going to take forever to get the ball away or that he was going to put up a useless kick. They just knew it b/c they watched the tape. White doesn't do that and they had to be prepared for that and he caused them issues in a way Murray never could b/c of they style he plays these days, slow as molasses. It isn't a secret that he has been slow for the most part for the past 18 months. There is an urgency there other 9s that you just don't see with Murray these days. His first thought is box kick, and that is done and dusted. It is over as an effective tactic.


                              I don't think it is overly simplistic. I think it's less simplistic to try to work out why our ball gets slowed down that to suppose that it's because, as you're pretty much literally saying, Murray can't be ****ed.

                              And I think "oh he was on a central contract, so everyone just ignores what we're insisting is totally and unerringly obvious" is a bit simplistic too.

                              I doubt well agree on this. I think Murray's form has been under pressure. But I don't think you can look at two set ups in desperate need of coaching innovation in attack - which is true of both Munster and Ireland - and whose packs are regularly bested by top opponents - now also true of both - and assert that:

                              - The scrum half is going slowly because he can't be arsed to go faster and
                              - Everyone is going along with this because he's on a central contract.


                              Finally, I think the "at least attempted to" is interesting. Is it not saying that, whether it's possible to go quicker or not, we attach a lot of value to a scrum half flapping his arms and looking frustrated?
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                                Contenders with Ireland and Munster who weren't on central contracts. The IRFU wasn't going to just eat that money and pay it to a bench player or a player who didn't make the national squad b/c his form had dipped that low. The fact that Murray was picked over Cooney for the WC and this past 6N was a flat out disgrace. There was zero justification for it. Cooney has been the form 9 in Ireland for long enough for him to take the jersey from a Murray who peaked in 2018 and has been downhill since. As for coaching instruction, is it some odd coincidence that whenever any other 9 came on, the pace sped up ? It happened whether the other player was starting or replacing Murray, they almost all sped things up or at least attempted to. Murray is a shell of his former self, just like Sexton is. They can give you the odd game here and there where they look like they've got it together, but they get found out b/c they've become far too predictable. The box kicks and the loop plays aren't working, find something else.

                                As for Nic White, putting that that down to the exeter pack matching sarries is overly simplistic. Sarries didn't have that extra second or two that Murray takes when he waltzes up to the ruck. White got on the ball and got it out in a way that Murray generally doesn't. Sarries knew that Murray was going to take forever to get the ball away or that he was going to put up a useless kick. They just knew it b/c they watched the tape. White doesn't do that and they had to be prepared for that and he caused them issues in a way Murray never could b/c of they style he plays these days, slow as molasses. It isn't a secret that he has been slow for the most part for the past 18 months. There is an urgency there other 9s that you just don't see with Murray these days. His first thought is box kick, and that is done and dusted. It is over as an effective tactic.
                                Murray was asked by Schmidt, Rassie and for a while JVG to do a very specific job at 9. Murray was asked to be the tactician, one of the primary decision makers on the field. The priority was not on speed of service but of minimizing mistakes, ensuring correct decisions were made, making sure players and pods were in place, etc. Schmidt and Rassie both played a possession gameplan which was reliant on heavy carriers repeatedly rotating and battering a team into submission. For both this was very successful but ultimately when a side matched the physicality and the battle upfront was lost then Ireland struggled. Both Schmidt and Rassie relied far more on Murray as a decison maker than media ever gave him credit for. Sexton regularly got the plaudits for it but it was Murray taking on box kicking/clearing duties, it was him deciding when to move the ball wide or keep with the heavy carriers.

                                i have an irrational dislike for Rob Kearney, just something about him that rubs me the wrong way. He's positioning is brilliant and he's supreme under the high ball but he's the ultimate can't pass won't pass and all he ever did for Ireland when he did catch the ball was tuck the ball under his arm and run looking for contact. It drove me nuts especially when we had players who could counter attack so effectively. it took me a long while to get over that irrational dislike, and it wasn't until i realised he was doing those things for two main reasons - 1. because he was damn good at them and 2. because thats exactly what his coaches were asking of him. The fault lies in the coach not the player. Murray is being asked to do certain things and he is doing them. Whilst i agree that central contracts give you additional chances that a provincial contract dont the simple facts are a coach, and specifically one under pressure, is not going to continually pick a player who doesn't do what he is asking him to do, especially one as detail driven as Schmidt.

                                The difference in styles and tempo when other scrum halves are playing for Ireland is most likely down to a tactics from the coach. He wants something different off the bench or an alternative for a certain match. One of my other problems with Kearney was his tackling, his dive, miss tackle, roll to the ground and thump the ground in frustration was a patented move. However most of the situations where Rob missed those tackles was because something went wrong in the system before that point, someone made a linebreak and he was trying to cover. He took the blame and the camera focuses on him as the last line of defence. The coaches will note the mistake as the original one to create the linebreak but TV may focus on the last tackle missed. Murray is the same, if his forwards are getting beaten up or can't clear out the rucks, or reset into heavy carrier pods quick enough then he looks bad as he has to wait at the base of the ruck to deal with slow ball and get people into position or revert to a contestable box kick. It is a huge factor. Murrays injury has also impacted his game style. In particular i think the neck injury took away his breaking game. Prior to the injury i felt he was sniping much more around the base and fixing defenders.

                                I don't buy the hype that Murray can't play a fast paced game i just think he needs to adapt back to it. He played the RWC under Schmidts boshball gameplan and then came back without any introduction to JVG and Larkham new style. He was straight back into gametime with players who were up to speed on the new gameplan in Munster and i don't think we will see what he is capable of until he comes back in August.

                                \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                                \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                                I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

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