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Munster Squad 2019-2020

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    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
    Considering JOD has probably been Munsters best forward this season it seems surprising that everyone seems to be relegating him to a potential bench option at best

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    You're right, but hard to know where to slot him in. I reckon it's him or Beirne starting.
    When things go wrong, blame McGahan

    Comment


      I don't think we've seen anything like Beirne's best rugby yet.

      I reckon there's another level in the guy. Hopefully he recovers fully from injury and gets to show us.
      Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
      Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


        I just don't see Kleyn as a carrier. He can tidy up crap ball and recycle, but he's not a dynamic carrier for my money. In the front row we have Killer and no one.

        With the issues we have with carrying in the front 5, I'd put a premium on tight carriers in the back row at the moment.

        A front 8 of, say:

        Killer
        Scannell
        Ryan
        Kleyn
        Snyman
        Beirne
        POM
        Stander


        is fundamentally short of carriers for me. In the tight, it would take us from our current approach of seeking out one of the two carriers to seeking out one of the three.

        An 8 of

        Killer
        Scannell
        Ryan
        Beirne
        Snyman
        POM
        TOD
        Stander

        is still at least one heavy carrier away from where we need to be against Leinster/Racing/WhatsleftofSarries, I think. We still need Ryan or Scannell (the latter in particular for me) to up the impact of their carrying.


        I can see the point of that- but I am not sure- for me Beirne, fine player and too good not to start, isn’t abrasive enough for second row- and Kleyne was really playing well last year- in that ‘enforcer’ role, which Beirne just doesn’t do. Perhaps, alongside Snyman we don’t need another, but for me the big games we lost were because we were going backwards up front. Agree totally about the one sided nature of front carriers, which is why I’m hoping some of the younger lads stick their hand up.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



          I remain agnostic about the "Murray is too slow" thing tbh. I agree that the difference in Mathewson's approach was visible, but it was so visible that I just can't imagine a coach sitting there thinking "Jesus I wish my starting scrum half would move at the same speed as the back up".

          It seems just as likely to me that Munster had a deliberate approach of going through the gears late game.

          I don't think Murray has been at his best. I just struggle with the idea that his national and provincial coaches are telling him to speed his game up, he's ignoring them, and still getting picked.

          I can't get my head around how that dynamic would work.
          For me, Alby, Strings and now the heir apparent are busy busy players, and it is / was great to see them play - but Murray is a class apart, has the elegance and extra time a class player in any sport seems to have. Injury and form have raised reasonable questions about him over the last couple of years, but with the improved speed and cleanliness of the ball our pack will win this year I’m hoping we will see the real Murray again. A consistent on form 10 outside him won’t hurt either.

          Comment


            I think (us unwashed illiterate mouth breathing savages on the sidelines) are a bit behind the curve when it comes to appreciating the importance of match-day depth in our 23.

            Two instances come to mind:
            Firstly Schalk Burger and Schalk Brits coming in off the bench for Sarries against us in Dublin
            Secondly, (and this one I cant place exactly), Donnacha coming off the bench for Racing against us and demolishing us in the last 20 mins of a game over there some time.


            Munster need to have firepower in waiting to really compete for 80 mins. Not to sound like that prick Eddie Jones but its as important whose finishing the game now as who is starting it.
            I am the million man.

            Comment


              Originally posted by B.A. View Post

              You're right, but hard to know where to slot him in. I reckon it's him or Beirne starting.

              I've not seen JOD have a season as yet to compare with what Beirne has shown for Scarlets and to a lesser extent for us (largely down to our game plan).

              He's a very capable player, but he's 26 and hasn't made an Ireland team in 3 years. He had a very good year last year, but this is a massive season for him. TOD is 33, Cloete's face doesn't seem to fit, and in a long season there will definitely be game time to be had.

              He has to push on this year. I still have a fully fit TOD ahead of him.
              Last edited by Balla Boy; 14-July-2020, 09:12.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                I've not seen JOD have a season as yet to compare with what Beirne has shown for Scarlets and to a lesser extent for us (largely down to our game plan).

                He's a very capable player, but he's 26 and hasn't made an Ireland team in 3 years. He had a very good year last year, but this is a massive season for him. TOD is 33, Cloete's face doesn't seem to fit, and in a long season there will definitely be game time to be had.

                He has to push on this year. I still have a fully fit TOD ahead of him.
                I see what you are saying, but I think on form over the last 2 seasons Jack O deserves his spot over TOD. He may not have had a “blow out” season as yet, but he’s been consistently good for us at 6,7 and 8 since he came back froM his knee injury.

                In a fully fit squad, he wears the 20 jersey for me.

                Cowboy’s point above about squad depth is very well made too. The versatility and quality of the likes of Jack O, Goggin and JJ will be critical this year.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                \"In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane\"

                Comment


                  Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
                  I can see the point of that- but I am not sure- for me Beirne, fine player and too good not to start, isn’t abrasive enough for second row- and Kleyne was really playing well last year- in that ‘enforcer’ role, which Beirne just doesn’t do. Perhaps, alongside Snyman we don’t need another, but for me the big games we lost were because we were going backwards up front. Agree totally about the one sided nature of front carriers, which is why I’m hoping some of the younger lads stick their hand up.
                  I think it was Flannery that said that Kleyn was by far the most powerful member of the Munster squad in contact. We’ve seen plenty of evidence to support this claim in the champions cup, where he was one of the only guys who was able to stop the powerful Saracens carriers behind the gainline. As good and as big as Snyman is, he has spent most of his career playing as a loosehead lock, with his Bulls team mate Jason Jenkins, playing at tighthead lock. From the point of view of stabilizing the scrum alone, I would say Kleyn is one of the first names on the team sheet.

                  Beirne has never been a massive “enforcer” in the second rower, but he can and has for Scarlets, been used as a tight carrier with good effect. He is not a Joe Tekori or James Ryan type second rower, where the emphasis is on taking tackles and gaining yards after the contact, but he uses footwork to beat the first/second defender. If we use him correctly, we have another very effective carrier and that leaves us with Killer, Snyman, Kleyn, Beirne and Stander as the main carriers. Assuming we use one of the modern attacking formations like the 1-3-3-1 or 2-4-2, that should be more than enough carriers, as it means we have at least two wide carriers in Snyman and Beirne and at least two tight carriers in each of the central pods in Kleyn, Killer, Stander and one of Marshall/Scannell.

                  The big upside of the pack selected by others above, is that we would arguably have the most threatening breakdown and lineout in Europe. This along with having one of the most consistent scrums in Europe, should keep us competitive in most games in Europe, despite having an attack that is a work in progress.


                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                    I think (us unwashed illiterate mouth breathing savages on the sidelines) are a bit behind the curve when it comes to appreciating the importance of match-day depth in our 23.

                    Two instances come to mind:
                    Firstly Schalk Burger and Schalk Brits coming in off the bench for Sarries against us in Dublin
                    Secondly, (and this one I cant place exactly), Donnacha coming off the bench for Racing against us and demolishing us in the last 20 mins of a game over there some time.


                    Munster need to have firepower in waiting to really compete for 80 mins. Not to sound like that prick Eddie Jones but its as important whose finishing the game now as who is starting it.
                    This is a fair point and bar Holland’s line-out steal against Exeter from the bench and some Alby performances, the lack of impact from the Munster bench has been noticeable in recent years. For me, Fineen and O’Donoghue are far better starters than bench players. I don’t think either player really provides a massive impact from the bench, so I think I would be looking at other guys to play those roles in the next few years.

                    Based on his performances off the bench against Ulster, Kings and Scarlets, Coombes seems like the type of guy that could have a real impact off the bench in the next few years. Being able to bring a 6-foot-4,18 stone ball-carrying back-rower off the bench at 60 minutes, could be a nightmare for opposition defences - who have already been defending tight-carries from Snyman, Kleyn, Stander and Killer.

                    We should have the makings of a very explosive bench in a few years time:

                    16. Marshall, 17. J.French, 18. Knox, 19. Ahern, 20. Coombes, 21. Casey, 22. Flannery, 23. S.French

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Colliniho View Post

                      I see what you are saying, but I think on form over the last 2 seasons Jack O deserves his spot over TOD. He may not have had a “blow out” season as yet, but he’s been consistently good for us at 6,7 and 8 since he came back froM his knee injury.

                      In a fully fit squad, he wears the 20 jersey for me.

                      Cowboy’s point above about squad depth is very well made too. The versatility and quality of the likes of Jack O, Goggin and JJ will be critical this year.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


                      I have him at 20 in my 23 too.
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        These are good problems to have.
                        When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                        Comment


                          The Munster squad have started their fourth week of training at the High Performance Centre ahead of next month’s planned return to Guinness PRO14 action.

                          The squad train this week before having nine days away from the HPC. They will return on Monday, July 27, with training stepping up a notch ahead of the two planned Guinness PRO14 derbies on the weekends of August 22/23 and August 29/30.

                          In positive news, it is expected that a number of players will reintegrate into squad training when the team begin the second block on July 27.

                          Tadhg Beirne (ankle), Keith Earls (calf), Calvin Nash (calf), John Ryan (shoulder) and Dave Kilcoyne – who sustained a calf injury during the early training weeks – are all in line to join the wider training group later this month.

                          Damian de Allende is continuing to rehab a groin injury and is expected to be available for the August fixtures.

                          Gavin Coombes has been sidelined from training with medical illness (non Covid-related).

                          Mike Haley sustained a calf injury in the opening weeks of training and has commenced his rehabilitation programme.

                          Dan Goggin requires further review for a leg injury and will undergo a scan this week.

                          Continuing to rehab: Joey Carbery (wrist/ankle), Damian de Allende (groin), Mike Haley (calf).

                          Academy duo Jack Crowley (out-half) and Josh Wycherley (prop) have joined fellow Academy men Thomas Ahern (lock), Jake Flannery (out-half/full-back), James French (prop) and Ben Healy (out-half) in training with the senior players.


                          Still no Hodnett? For a player who has made an impact whenever he’s played it seems odd.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                            I think (us unwashed illiterate mouth breathing savages on the sidelines) are a bit behind the curve when it comes to appreciating the importance of match-day depth in our 23.

                            Two instances come to mind:
                            Firstly Schalk Burger and Schalk Brits coming in off the bench for Sarries against us in Dublin
                            Secondly, (and this one I cant place exactly), Donnacha coming off the bench for Racing against us and demolishing us in the last 20 mins of a game over there some time.


                            Munster need to have firepower in waiting to really compete for 80 mins. Not to sound like that prick Eddie Jones but its as important whose finishing the game now as who is starting it.
                            I agree. We were leading in Barnet and Paris with ten minutes to go, but got nowt in the end in both.

                            One of the differences between '06 and '08 and the previous lost finals and Semis (particularly in Toulouse and v Wasps) was the ability to bring on Mick O'Driscoll, Freddie, Quinnie etc. after an hour or so. We need to get back to that.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Piquet View Post

                              I agree. We were leading in Barnet and Paris with ten minutes to go, but got nowt in the end in both.

                              One of the differences between '06 and '08 and the previous lost finals and Semis (particularly in Toulouse and v Wasps) was the ability to bring on Mick O'Driscoll, Freddie, Quinnie etc. after an hour or so. We need to get back to that.


                              Yeah - it's an odd one in hindsight. I remember in 2006 feeling that the squad was fairly stretched heading into the final.

                              Cullen was out. Barry Murphy had broken his leg. I can't remember if Gary Connolly was injured or had just dropped off the face, but he'd played a few HEC games that year and wasn't there.The Pitout experiment hadn't been a roaring success.

                              We still went to Cardiff with a bench that in Quinnie, Tomas and Henderson had three guys that were selected for Lions tours, MOD at lock, Fogarty and Freddie covering front row.

                              In the last few years there's been far fewer 20-30 cap internationals on our bench...
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                All the talk about balance in the pack, its all a hat of crabs if we cant improve our accuracy around the ruck.

                                You put CJ and Tadhg Beirne on the front foot and we WILL score tries from distance, we've a handful of these guys right now already.

                                Unlocking top opposition is entirely dependent on 14 players melting every ruck and giving the ball to murray in seconds.

                                Heavy carriers are impotent without clean fast ball IMO. We've two options in attack, wear down the opposition defence till it cracks, or run them ragged till it tears. Both are dependent on fast ruck work all game.
                                I am the million man.

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