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Munster Squad 2019-2020

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    Originally posted by Colliniho View Post

    It is a fair point. This may not be how JVG is thinking at all. I have always seen POM as a 6.5 who was capable of playing more at 7 than he has. Beirne’s breakdown ability would mitigate not having a Cloete type openside in our 15 too.


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    It has a lot of jackling potential, and plenty of open link play, but I think as a 3 it leaves us short a heavy carrier. I've always felt that a full and firing TOD is important in adding another carrier with POM and CJ are at 6 and 8, and most of our strongest performances over the last few seasons seem to have been marked by him on the front foot, shaking off tacklers.


    It's a bit less popular as a position here, but for me Kleyn makes way for Snyman, Beirne stays at Lock, POM 6, TOD 7, CJ 8.

    That 5 gives us 3 strong tight carriers in Snyman, TOD and CJ, two effective wider carriers in Beirne and POM, and 4 of the 5 we know can win turnovers on the floor - Snyman to be seen.

    It's a better balanced 5 for me. I worry that Kleyn and Snyman overlap in what they bring in such a way as to leave gaps elsewhere.

    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      If history proves anything, it's that we won't have to worry about these selection decisions for too long, because someone is guaranteed to get injured.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Wallyman View Post
        If history proves anything, it's that we won't have to worry about these selection decisions for too long, because someone is guaranteed to get injured.
        True. There's an awful lot of rugby to be played.


        Though it seems we'd need an awful lot of them for JVG to give Chris Cloete a run...
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by Wallyman View Post
          If history proves anything, it's that we won't have to worry about these selection decisions for too long, because someone is guaranteed to get injured.
          An england international player will have 14 games in 11 weeks, straight into the end of this current 6N and the new season!

          If Munster time their run, and the plague effs off, we will never have a better chance to nip a 3rd european title I think.
          I am the million man.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Lonstonitis View Post
            Very hard to figure out who doesn't start next seasons big games if everyone is fit and available. I'm assuming its Kleyn and RG in the second row. Beirne cannot be dropped in my view so I assume he's now a 6, POM is a 7 and Stander at 8. That leaves Cloete, TOD, Holland among the exciting new bunch of young fellas fighting it out for 2 bench spaces. Would really love to see TOD get a good run next season.
            I’d have Fineen and Jod on the bench, some pack
            \"Only Pienaar, Botha and Ferris would be in contention for a place on our first 15. That\'s a fact.\" - Tickettout\'s take on Ulster April 2011.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



              It has a lot of jackling potential, and plenty of open link play, but I think as a 3 it leaves us short a heavy carrier. I've always felt that a full and firing TOD is important in adding another carrier with POM and CJ are at 6 and 8, and most of our strongest performances over the last few seasons seem to have been marked by him on the front foot, shaking off tacklers.
              I would hope that with CJ, Kleyn and Snyman (in addition to the front rows) we’d have enough go forward to allow us to play Beirne and POM. The two of them offer so much defensively and at the line out/breakdown that it would be a shame if we couldn’t accommodate them.

              Our centre partnership offers such a physical threat that I’d hope this would mitigate not playing TOD too.

              It’s a huge season for TOD. He’s not getting any younger, we have a dedicated 7 in year 3 of the academy and he’s behind Jack O for me now.


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              \"In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane\"

              Comment


                Originally posted by Talking Sense View Post

                I’d have Fineen and Jod on the bench, some pack
                It’s the year for Fineen to (hopefully!) put himself ahead of Billy on merit.

                His brother will he eyeing Cronin and O’Connors spots in the squad too.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                \"In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane\"

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Colliniho View Post

                  I would hope that with CJ, Kleyn and Snyman (in addition to the front rows) we’d have enough go forward to allow us to play Beirne and POM. The two of them offer so much defensively and at the line out/breakdown that it would be a shame if we couldn’t accommodate them.

                  Our centre partnership offers such a physical threat that I’d hope this would mitigate not playing TOD too.

                  It’s a huge season for TOD. He’s not getting any younger, we have a dedicated 7 in year 3 of the academy and he’s behind Jack O for me now.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  Apart from Killer the lack of effective heavy or impact carriers in the tight five has been a significant problem for Munster.

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                  \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                  \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                  I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Colliniho View Post

                    I would hope that with CJ, Kleyn and Snyman (in addition to the front rows) we’d have enough go forward to allow us to play Beirne and POM. The two of them offer so much defensively and at the line out/breakdown that it would be a shame if we couldn’t accommodate them.

                    Our centre partnership offers such a physical threat that I’d hope this would mitigate not playing TOD too.

                    It’s a huge season for TOD. He’s not getting any younger, we have a dedicated 7 in year 3 of the academy and he’s behind Jack O for me now.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    The line out options we’d have with the pack suggested above is also worth bearing in mind. The 50:22 rule, with the likes of JJ, Carbery, Murray and back three kicking out of hand will give us a great way of putting massive pressure on the opposition.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                      The line out options we’d have with the pack suggested above is also worth bearing in mind. The 50:22 rule, with the likes of JJ, Carbery, Murray and back three kicking out of hand will give us a great way of putting massive pressure on the opposition.
                      POM, Snyman, Kleyn and Beirne is a lineout to match anyone’s!


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                      \"In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane\"

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                        On the 4-14 above, the only thing I still have anxiety about is the "Beirne to 6, POM to 7" thing. Is there anything outside of our optimism and desire to see our best players on all on the pitch that makes us think that a test blindside ten years into his career is just going to switch across? Or will be able to?
                        If I recall correctly POM played at 7 on the tour down under a couple of years ago and effectively outplayed Hooper at his own game. I have no fear of him at openside.

                        When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
                          Apart from Killer the lack of effective heavy or impact carriers in the tight five has been a significant problem for Munster.

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                          If they ref the offside line and breakdown they way they've been doing it down under, that issue will resolve itself a good bit. Also, Munster can't have Murray sauntering up the the ruck and taking a dog's age to get the ball out to a carrier. We all saw the difference when Alby started or came into games; the ball was much quicker. That only helps the carriers going forward b/c defenses cannot get set and just wait on the receiver who has to carry from a standing start.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Colliniho View Post

                            I would hope that with CJ, Kleyn and Snyman (in addition to the front rows) we’d have enough go forward to allow us to play Beirne and POM. The two of them offer so much defensively and at the line out/breakdown that it would be a shame if we couldn’t accommodate them.

                            Our centre partnership offers such a physical threat that I’d hope this would mitigate not playing TOD too.

                            It’s a huge season for TOD. He’s not getting any younger, we have a dedicated 7 in year 3 of the academy and he’s behind Jack O for me now.


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                            I just don't see Kleyn as a carrier. He can tidy up crap ball and recycle, but he's not a dynamic carrier for my money. In the front row we have Killer and no one.

                            With the issues we have with carrying in the front 5, I'd put a premium on tight carriers in the back row at the moment.

                            A front 8 of, say:

                            Killer
                            Scannell
                            Ryan
                            Kleyn
                            Snyman
                            Beirne
                            POM
                            Stander


                            is fundamentally short of carriers for me. In the tight, it would take us from our current approach of seeking out one of the two carriers to seeking out one of the three.

                            An 8 of

                            Killer
                            Scannell
                            Ryan
                            Beirne
                            Snyman
                            POM
                            TOD
                            Stander

                            is still at least one heavy carrier away from where we need to be against Leinster/Racing/WhatsleftofSarries, I think. We still need Ryan or Scannell (the latter in particular for me) to up the impact of their carrying.



                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                              If they ref the offside line and breakdown they way they've been doing it down under, that issue will resolve itself a good bit. Also, Munster can't have Murray sauntering up the the ruck and taking a dog's age to get the ball out to a carrier. We all saw the difference when Alby started or came into games; the ball was much quicker. That only helps the carriers going forward b/c defenses cannot get set and just wait on the receiver who has to carry from a standing start.


                              I remain agnostic about the "Murray is too slow" thing tbh. I agree that the difference in Mathewson's approach was visible, but it was so visible that I just can't imagine a coach sitting there thinking "Jesus I wish my starting scrum half would move at the same speed as the back up".

                              It seems just as likely to me that Munster had a deliberate approach of going through the gears late game.

                              I don't think Murray has been at his best. I just struggle with the idea that his national and provincial coaches are telling him to speed his game up, he's ignoring them, and still getting picked.

                              I can't get my head around how that dynamic would work.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Considering JOD has probably been Munsters best forward this season it seems surprising that everyone seems to be relegating him to a potential bench option at best

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                                Comment

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