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Munster Squad 2019-2020

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  • Chrizzzie
    replied
    Originally posted by Mumhain View Post

    This is a very fair point, but ultimately with the financial implications of Covid and everything else associated with it, I think it is unlikely that we will be able to sign a guy that is an international starter or a guy that is significantly better than JJ as injury cover for Carberry. For me, it then becomes a question of do we sign a journeyman squad filler that probably won’t ever reach the level of the top-calibre 10's that have won the champions cup in the past or do we trust the talented Irish under-20 players that could potentially become Ireland senior internationals and are more likely to reach that level?
    Valid point. Maybe we should give Owen Farrell a call. He might like the prospect of playing a year for a HCUP contender instead of Championship. I'm sure his Daddy is willing to help as he was part of the coaching team that got us in this mess in the first place....

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  • Mumhain
    replied
    Originally posted by Chrizzzie View Post

    What also plays a role for me is that we have Snyman and De Allende for the next two years. These players required a substantial investment but Munster (and their lenders) have been prepared to do this as they believe this is needed to make the jump to cup contenders. It's no secret that the FH position is vital to win anything. Just look at the FH of teams that won HCup's. If we give youth a chance at flyhalf it means that it will take at least two years (and probably more) before they are hopefully at top European level. By than our RWC winners are already gone and the investment was worthless.
    This is a very fair point, but ultimately with the financial implications of Covid and everything else associated with it, I think it is unlikely that we will be able to sign a guy that is an international starter or a guy that is significantly better than JJ as injury cover for Carberry. For me, it then becomes a question of do we sign a journeyman squad filler that probably won’t ever reach the level of the top-calibre 10's that have won the champions cup in the past or do we trust the talented Irish under-20 players that could potentially become Ireland senior internationals and are more likely to reach that level?
    Last edited by Mumhain; 20-August-2020, 10:53.

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  • rathbaner
    replied
    Question to clarify matters:
    Who would you want on the bench covering flyhalf in a tight Pro14 final against Ulster if JJ, God forbid, got crocked in the first 10 minutes?

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  • Chrizzzie
    replied
    Originally posted by Mumhain View Post
    I’m not disagreeing or disputing any of that Ormond lad, but it’s also worth remembering that there is no limit on Non-English Eligible players in the premiership, and that the clubs receive substantially more money from their tv deal — which they can then spend on international signings. Jacob Umaga for example — one of the guys mentioned in the post, has to compete with an All Black international Lima Sopoaga and a fellow New Zealander Jimmy Gopperth, so it’s not like they are only being selected because the talent is spread too thin. It shows they are consistently playing well at a high level, which feeds back into my original point, if young fly-halves are capable of playing that amount of games and performing well — in a league that is arguably more attritional — there is no reason why the Munster guys with similar potential couldn’t play a similar amount of games next season.
    What also plays a role for me is that we have Snyman and De Allende for the next two years. These players required a substantial investment but Munster (and their lenders) have been prepared to do this as they believe this is needed to make the jump to cup contenders. It's no secret that the FH position is vital to win anything. Just look at the FH of teams that won HCup's. If we give youth a chance at flyhalf it means that it will take at least two years (and probably more) before they are hopefully at top European level. By than our RWC winners are already gone and the investment was worthless.

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  • Mumhain
    replied
    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
    The English have lot more sides so can get players game time earlier. They also have tie ins with schools etc that gets some players playing pro earlier. This is where getting more A games would help us as English get young players to go on loan to championship which would be same as A games for us.
    I’m not disagreeing or disputing any of that Ormond lad, but it’s also worth remembering that there is no limit on Non-English Eligible players in the premiership, and that the clubs receive substantially more money from their tv deal — which they can then spend on international signings. Jacob Umaga for example — one of the guys mentioned in the post, has to compete with an All Black international Lima Sopoaga and a fellow New Zealander Jimmy Gopperth, so it’s not like they are only being selected because the talent is spread too thin. It shows they are consistently playing well at a high level, which feeds back into my original point, if young fly-halves are capable of playing that amount of games and performing well — in a league that is arguably more attritional — there is no reason why the Munster guys with similar potential couldn’t play a similar amount of games next season.

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  • Mumhain
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    What we have are no available international level options at 10. Which even Ulster have now that Madigan is there.

    It's not a good place to be at all, whatever the prospects for next year or the year after.


    We're looking for one of the young lads to do something really remarkable.
    I think Madigan is a good example that being an international/having more experience doesn’t necessarily equate to being a better option. For a portion of his last season at Bristol, Madigan was third choice behind a guy who is two years younger than Healy/Flannery — who featured in the Wales under 20 team that was hammered by Ireland in the 6 nations — and a relatively inexperienced 24-year old Irish eligible player (Callum Sheedy).

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  • Mumhain
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    I'd definitely agree with "if they're good enough". I just think there's a development challenge here.

    I'm less worried about whether guys can stand up to the 10/15 starts.

    The issue for me is more that to get one of those lads through the curve you're going to have to back him and give him game time. He's going to have to be given those games - it can't be spread through three or four prospects or they'll all go nowhere.


    I guess my question would have been better phrased as "is one of those lads ready to step out from that group, take the mantle, and provide a return on the game time invested".



    The ideal would be that we'd have a number one (probably Carbery) starting 20 games a year or so with our number 2 (probably JJ) benching for most of those.

    JJ would start 13 or so, with our number 3 benching. Those are games during international windows, european turnarounds etc.

    Now this year we'd probably have spread those bench spots through the younger group, looking for one to break from the pack for next year.


    If Carbery is out long term, we now have to pick one and back them for that number 2 slot.


    It's a jump. Hopefully the coaching team have enough insight that it's not a punt too.
    I get this point of view and it’s definitely a possibility, but I think there is also a chance that what happened at Leinster in the 2016-17 season could happen here. As IBIJ highlighted, similar to Munster now, there was no guy who was considered the clear standout second choice. Carbery was around 21 and had yet to make his debut for Leinster, Byrne was a similar age and had played 3 matches, Marsh was the elder statesman of the group with 12 appearances previously for Leinster, but he hadn't been overly convinced in those appearances.

    I think this is where the element of calculated risk and trust in the academy comes into it.

    We complain about the lack of munster-born Irish internationals, but at the same time we are willing to have potentially four Irish under-20 fly-halves — three of whom started some big matches for successful Irish under-20 sides — sitting in the stands watching JJ, Scannell and a journeyman cover fly-half. My fear is that we will have the same inevitable conversation in 12 months time about a lack of experience amongst the 10 options, once the squad filler leaves.

    One of the main indicators we have — as supporters — as to whether a guy is ready to make that step up is based off of comparisons with international under 20 compatriots in six nations/under-20 matches.

    Healy, Flannery and Crowley have played big roles in the best international under-20 team in the six nations over the past two seasons, coming up against opposition that had experience of making that step-up ( Marcus Smith, Louis Carbonel, Vunipola at the JWC).


    Last edited by Mumhain; 20-August-2020, 10:39.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
    When Madigan left Leinster we were left with Sexton Cathal Marsh, Joey Carberry and Ross Byrne who were all young, inexperienced and nowhere near international backup standard. Playing Ross and Joey though is what made them international class.
    Munster need to play their you guys and give them 10-15 appearances and you should only need your top OH for 10-12 games

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    I agree with the basic point- those who we want to come through need to play- and Leinster have done this remarkably well. I’m not convinced about only needn’t your top 10 for so few games (and ma deliberately not making any point here about Sexton’s general unavailability), but the situation you describe as applied to Leinster then isn’t the same as ours. Sexton’s level then and JJs now are very different. I’m sure we hope/ believe that one of Healy, Crowley, Flannery will be better than Marsh, Joey and Byrne- but I’m genuinely unsure whether they as good now ( ie as ready for a substantial number of starts) and the Leinster trio were then. All of that said, if Larkham can’t make the decision about whether they are ready, and how best to introduce them, then I’m not sure who can.

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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    What we have are no available international level options at 10. Which even Ulster have now that Madigan is there.

    It's not a good place to be at all, whatever the prospects for next year or the year after.


    We're looking for one of the young lads to do something really remarkable.
    When Madigan left Leinster we were left with Sexton Cathal Marsh, Joey Carberry and Ross Byrne who were all young, inexperienced and nowhere near international backup standard. Playing Ross and Joey though is what made them international class.
    Munster need to play their you guys and give them 10-15 appearances and you should only need your top OH for 10-12 games

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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  • ormond lad
    replied
    Originally posted by Mumhain View Post


    It’s pretty hard to tell at this point, but it’s not unheard of for a 21/22 year old guy to be playing that amount of matches. When Flannery started for Ireland at 15 in the 2019 six nations opener, the guy (Marcus Smith) England had at 10 is currently Harlequins’ starting fly-half and has already played 78 matches for them within the period of just over two and a half seasons. I believe all three guys have shown substantial potential to be given the chance, but ultimately we don’t know if a guy is capable of playing 15-20 matches or a similar amount of minutes to Marcus Smith, until he gets the chance.

    I think the proverb “if they are good enough they are old enough” very much applies to the fly-half position in rugby. Owen Farrell and George Ford both regularly played for Saracens/Leicester when they were 19 — a lot younger than Healy and Flannery are now. Current examples of guys who arguably have a similar level of talent to Flannery/Healy and who will be playing at least 10 matches this season include Manu Vunipola and Jacob Umaga in England. Will Harrison and Noah Lolesio are both first choice for their Australian super rugby teams at the same age as Healy/Flannery.

    The conservative or short term decision is to sign a guy, which I get, but a longer term view might be to look at the Bill Johnston example and what happens when you overcrowd a position with too much talent. Do you risk losing a future Ireland international or slow his development, by signing a NIQ guy who may or may not be better than them? If there were only two massive academy prospects at 10, I think I’d be in favour of signing cover, but the fact that there are three and potentially a fourth to be added in the next few months, I don’t think you can add another guy, while giving all the other options the substantial game time that they need to develop.
    The English have lot more sides so can get players game time earlier. They also have tie ins with schools etc that gets some players playing pro earlier. This is where getting more A games would help us as English get young players to go on loan to championship which would be same as A games for us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
    These figures and those quoted by Mumhain above are pretty compelling, and with the possibility of Rory Scannell also supporting 10, I think we really must go with what we have.


    What we have are no available international level options at 10. Which even Ulster have now that Madigan is there.

    It's not a good place to be at all, whatever the prospects for next year or the year after.


    We're looking for one of the young lads to do something really remarkable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Mumhain View Post



    It’s pretty hard to tell at this point, but it’s not unheard of for a 21/22 year old guy to be playing that amount of matches. When Flannery started for Ireland at 15 in the 2019 six nations opener, the guy (Marcus Smith) England had at 10 is currently Harlequins’ starting fly-half and has already played 78 matches for them within the period of just over two and a half seasons. I believe all three guys have shown substantial potential to be given the chance, but ultimately we don’t know if a guy is capable of playing 15-20 matches or a similar amount of minutes to Marcus Smith, until he gets the chance.


    I think the proverb “if they are good enough they are old enough” very much applies to the fly-half position in rugby. Owen Farrell and George Ford both regularly played for Saracens/Leicester when they were 19 — a lot younger than Healy and Flannery are now. Current examples of guys who arguably have a similar level of talent to Flannery/Healy and who will be playing at least 10 matches this season include Manu Vunipola and Jacob Umaga in England. Will Harrison and Noah Lolesio are both first choice for their Australian super rugby teams at the same age as Healy/Flannery.


    The conservative or short term decision is to sign a guy, which I get, but a longer term view might be to look at the Bill Johnston example and what happens when you overcrowd a position with too much talent. Do you risk losing a future Ireland international or slow his development, by signing a NIQ guy who may or may not be better than them? If there were only two massive academy prospects at 10, I think I’d be in favour of signing cover, but the fact that there are three and potentially a fourth to be added in the next few months, I don’t think you can add another guy, while giving all the other options the substantial game time that they need to develop.


    I'd definitely agree with "if they're good enough". I just think there's a development challenge here.

    I'm less worried about whether guys can stand up to the 10/15 starts.

    The issue for me is more that to get one of those lads through the curve you're going to have to back him and give him game time. He's going to have to be given those games - it can't be spread through three or four prospects or they'll all go nowhere.


    I guess my question would have been better phrased as "is one of those lads ready to step out from that group, take the mantle, and provide a return on the game time invested".



    The ideal would be that we'd have a number one (probably Carbery) starting 20 games a year or so with our number 2 (probably JJ) benching for most of those.

    JJ would start 13 or so, with our number 3 benching. Those are games during international windows, european turnarounds etc.

    Now this year we'd probably have spread those bench spots through the younger group, looking for one to break from the pack for next year.


    If Carbery is out long term, we now have to pick one and back them for that number 2 slot.


    It's a jump. Hopefully the coaching team have enough insight that it's not a punt too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldschoolsocks
    replied
    Originally posted by mr chips View Post
    Greetings to our Leinster-supporting visitors! I know it's a match weekend at long last, but for the most part what rugby discussion we've had on here has been pretty civilised and non-antagonistic. Over the past 24 hours or so however, it's like a few of the neighbours' kids have popped in and all of a sudden there are arguments being started over all sorts of irrelevant stuff. It's a long-established pattern by now, but that's not the same thing as a time-honoured tradition. I'll ask ye to please be civil, communicate like grown-ups and try to discuss rugby matters - even when it's a game between our two sides! - that have a reasonably tangible bearing on the upcoming fixture.
    Mea Culpa

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  • Oldschoolsocks
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    OK, my original comment was a cheap shot, and I withdraw it. I'm sure you'd agree we have been extraordinarily unlucky losing out on potential game time from stars/potential stars at 10.
    Absolutely, Blyendhal and Carbery have both had rotten luck with injury - hopefully Carbery will recover and deliver on his potential

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  • Finnegan79
    replied
    JVG needs to go to the youngsters and tell them it is now a straight up competition for the backup 10 shirt. Bringing in another 10 only slows them down. Just go with the talent on hand and hope for the best. Maybe one of them will be a breakout star.

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