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    Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

    Wouldn't be surprised to see them phased out of the Ireland squad, beginning with reduced appearances this season. It was on the cards for POM this past year when he didn't get picked to start against Scotland. The media really have it out for him, constantly slagging him off, such a bull**** double standard. Took them 18 months of repeated poor performances in big games to finally criticize Sexton, but POM doesn't light up the stat sheet and he should be dropped instantly.
    Agree that there is a massive amount of confirmation bias, with the POM criticism. Going forward, I think that POM will be in the Irish squad for at least the next two years. Of the back-row options currently fit (excluding Leavy), he is still the most consistent breakdown jackal and line-out option by a distance. Carrying has never been the primary strength of his game for Ireland, yet after every game, certain media look at his carrying stats religiously as being indisputable evidence that POM is out of form. I completely understand if people prefer different types of players, but the criticism of POM’s form based on his carrying grows wearisome.

    .

    Comment


      Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

      Wouldn't be surprised to see them phased out of the Ireland squad, beginning with reduced appearances this season. It was on the cards for POM this past year when he didn't get picked to start against Scotland. The media really have it out for him, constantly slagging him off, such a bull**** double standard. Took them 18 months of repeated poor performances in big games to finally criticize Sexton, but POM doesn't light up the stat sheet and he should be dropped instantly.
      You might be right. In addition to Murphy at Ulster, Leinster have 6 back rows who are at test level now. Connors and especially Penney may be only a run of games (see Ronan Kelleher) away from joining them.
      I still think both Pete and CJ are in the first choice 23 when fit, but it’s close and neither of them are getting any younger.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      \"In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane\"

      Comment


        Stander is another one who gets mercilessly treated by the rugby media. The thing with all the Leinster back row lads who are either uncapped or only have a few at the moment is that it is primarily hype and the media are creating it and buying into it at the same time. Look at Conan. Fine player, does well for Leinster, but when has he ever done it in a big test for Ireland, yet they're constantly saying he has overtaken Stander. Let him win a few Man of the Match awards in the 6N or at a WC and then it will be time. He's had chances but has never put in a "wow" performance at that level. Been solid to be sure but never looked like he was something special in attack or defense for Ireland against tier 1 opposition.

        Comment


          Originally posted by mr chips View Post

          Yeah, I completely agree. I think that by & large, we have the raw (and not so raw) material in terms of the squad - plenty of lads like those I mentioned who've shown lots of promise. When looking at individuals, we can never assume that each one will deliver on that promise - JJ didn't become the mercurial world-beater we thought he might, even though he has become a lot more reliable over the past season - but when those individuals are viewed as a collective then it's for the coaching ticket to deliver on that promise.
          Agree with this, and BBs comment that it’s hard to know what a JVG team plays like. It seems to me that a lot has been put right in the background, there has been substantial investment in outstanding coaching- and in strengthening the squad, whether through our own efforts or IRFU, a goodly number of young players coming through, but there is no definitive style of play- or indisputable improvement on the pitch ( maybe home and away against saracens), although most players are playing better. Perhaps what JVG contributes really is management/structural development rather than ‘pitch-side’ , in which case the questions are better answered by out two senior coaches- either way the coming season realty does pose some serious questions.

          Comment


            Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
            Agree with this, and BBs comment that it’s hard to know what a JVG team plays like. It seems to me that a lot has been put right in the background, there has been substantial investment in outstanding coaching- and in strengthening the squad, whether through our own efforts or IRFU, a goodly number of young players coming through, but there is no definitive style of play- or indisputable improvement on the pitch ( maybe home and away against saracens), although most players are playing better. Perhaps what JVG contributes really is management/structural development rather than ‘pitch-side’ , in which case the questions are better answered by out two senior coaches- either way the coming season realty does pose some serious questions.
            I think you might be right in this, with hints of another coach being added, you'd wonder if JVG will move into a DOR type role with maybe Larkham as head coach. For me this coming season I'd like to see the players take ownership of what happens on the pitch. Back in the glory days Kidney had enough faith in the team to take a hands off approach knowing that when things were going badly on the pitch you could always rely on ROG, O'Connell, Foley etc to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and turn it around. You don't get that sense from the current team. Bar maybe O'Mahony occasionally there doesn't seem to be any player who can turn a game by sheer force of will. We have the talent I think but there is a mental gap that needs to be bridged to get to the next level.
            When things go wrong, blame McGahan

            Comment


              Originally posted by B.A. View Post

              I think you might be right in this, with hints of another coach being added, you'd wonder if JVG will move into a DOR type role with maybe Larkham as head coach. For me this coming season I'd like to see the players take ownership of what happens on the pitch. Back in the glory days Kidney had enough faith in the team to take a hands off approach knowing that when things were going badly on the pitch you could always rely on ROG, O'Connell, Foley etc to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and turn it around. You don't get that sense from the current team. Bar maybe O'Mahony occasionally there doesn't seem to be any player who can turn a game by sheer force of will. We have the talent I think but there is a mental gap that needs to be bridged to get to the next level.
              Munster have been punching above their weight for some time - competing with though not beating (often enough) the teams with bigger and better squads like Saracens, Leinster & Racing.

              The reason that in years gone by 'leaders' were able to change the game is that they were amongst the best players on the pitch and could therefore influence a game with their intervention at crucial times.

              The character of the team and the effort to maintain their level of performances in the European cup has been remarkable - look at the differences in the line up in the victory over Touon (QF HC 2018) - and the 'leadership' by Conway (amongst the best players on the pitch) to grab a certain defeat as the ball sailed over his head towards touch - and then score under the posts - and turn it in to victory.

              Whatever about Munster's style of play- they have managed to hang in there in Europe and hold the fort until reinforcements arrive (which they have now over the last couple of years) - and with equality in playing ability - the more obvious manifestations of leadership should once again be on display.
              Last edited by AdolphusGrigson; 3-June-2020, 09:20.
              ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

              Originally Posted by mr chips
              AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

              Comment


                To be honest I think we have some players who are actually good enough to influence a game singlehandedly, Murray for one has been very disappointing in that regard. I recently watched the game Vs the all blacks (2013 I think?) where we lost by 2 points. I'd forgotten how bloody good he can be, he could almost walk on water in that match yet he never really pushed on to be a great leader in Munster. I believe he still has that ability. JOD is another who I think will be one of those players. With the addition of proven winners like Snyman and De Allende I'd be hoping it will be a shot in the arm for players to actually step up and believe in themselves.
                When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                Comment


                  Front Row - overall its good but we lack the right balance. Currently Killer is the only one out of all our front rows that could be considered an effective/dynamic heavy ball carrier.

                  Loosehead - We have a rake of looseheads capable of playing to european standards behind him but none have pushed on to show they can step up to international level so far. Loughman is a baller and good in open play. Cronin seems to have reached a ceiling he can't push through and Boomer hasn't had a run of games injury free yet. Wycherley looks to be the one based on his u20's play that could come through and pass a good few of them out.

                  Hooker - Scannell is great at the basics but lacks the explosiveness with ball in hand. O'Byrne is a baller in open play and his lineout is spot on but i think there remains some questions on his scrummaging against bigger sides. Marshall seem to be somewhere in the middle of the two skills wise but along with TH its the position we don't have any effective/dynamic heavy carriers.

                  Tight Head - Ryan and Archer are again very solid up to European level but neither has pushed on to be an international starter. Knox is the great white hope and he looks like he will be a monster for years to come if he can stay injury free. I want to see more of him carrying this season to see how effective he can be at this level. Salanoa looks to have all the raw attributes and Rowntree could well be the man to harness them. Salanoa seems to be a direct addition to boost our front row ball carrying.

                  Second row - Its hard to see beyond Snyman and Kleyn being the first choice pairing for the big games. It offers so much in terms of grunt and big ball carriers. Holland will continue to offer experience and leadership for Pro14 games and hopefully Ahern starts to see some gametime and learn from Snyman. I think Wycherley will see more gametime as this new style of second row/blind side flanker comes back into vogue.

                  Backrow - I think if we go with a front five of Killer, Scannell, Ryan, Kleyn and Snyman and a centre pairing of Farrell and De Allende then we have some leeway in how the backrow is structured. POM and CJ are the two nailed on starters in our backrow but the third position is very much up for grabs. Beirne, Wycherley, Coombes, TOD, JOD and JOS all have genuine shouts to push on for that spot. Beirne would be an alternative at 6 but it does leave CJ as the only heavy ball carrier in the back row with this combo. Wycherley could fill the 6 jersey in a similar mould to how England have looked to use Courtney Lawes. Both Wycherley and Beirne at 6 cause POM to shift to openside. I don't think that matters too much as Beirne acts like an openside at the breakdown and picking Wycherley would likely be a specific set up for a specific opponent. Coombes and JOS are both longer shots as they primarily fill the 8 jersey and act as ball carriers with Coombes in particular looking to have the frame to do damage. JOD and TOD could both play seven with CJ and POM in the back row and this along with Beirne look to be the more likely combinations at least at the start of the season. Cloete offers the traditional openside role but i think in some ways POM and Beirne if used in tandem could easily fill that role without giving away the silly pens. Cloete is likely to be under pressure from Hodnett this season for the Pro14 gametime.

                  If i was picking a starting pack for Europe right now it would be
                  Killer, Scannell, Ryan, Kleyn, Snyman, Beirne, POM, CJ
                  Subs - O'Byrne, Loughman, Archer Wycherley, JOD

                  From a tactical point of view that allows dynamic carriers in Killer, Snyman and CJ in the pack along with De Allende and Farrell in midfield. Scannell, Ryan and Kleyn can carry in the tight and POM and Beirne offer wider threats with ball in hand.
                  If Munster continue with the 2-3-2-1 i would expect to see something like Kleyn and Ryan as the first 2, Synman, Killer and Scannell in the 3, POM/Beirne and CJ in the two and Beirne/POM as the wider man.
                  The set piece should be very solid with Kleyn and Snyman in the engine room and at lineout we effectively have four first choice jumpers from 4 - 7 with CJ more than capable from touch as well.
                  \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                  \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                  I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post
                    Front Row - overall its good but we lack the right balance. Currently Killer is the only one out of all our front rows that could be considered an effective/dynamic heavy ball carrier.

                    Loosehead - We have a rake of looseheads capable of playing to european standards behind him but none have pushed on to show they can step up to international level so far. Loughman is a baller and good in open play. Cronin seems to have reached a ceiling he can't push through and Boomer hasn't had a run of games injury free yet. Wycherley looks to be the one based on his u20's play that could come through and pass a good few of them out.

                    Hooker - Scannell is great at the basics but lacks the explosiveness with ball in hand. O'Byrne is a baller in open play and his lineout is spot on but i think there remains some questions on his scrummaging against bigger sides. Marshall seem to be somewhere in the middle of the two skills wise but along with TH its the position we don't have any effective/dynamic heavy carriers.

                    Tight Head - Ryan and Archer are again very solid up to European level but neither has pushed on to be an international starter. Knox is the great white hope and he looks like he will be a monster for years to come if he can stay injury free. I want to see more of him carrying this season to see how effective he can be at this level. Salanoa looks to have all the raw attributes and Rowntree could well be the man to harness them. Salanoa seems to be a direct addition to boost our front row ball carrying.

                    Second row - Its hard to see beyond Snyman and Kleyn being the first choice pairing for the big games. It offers so much in terms of grunt and big ball carriers. Holland will continue to offer experience and leadership for Pro14 games and hopefully Ahern starts to see some gametime and learn from Snyman. I think Wycherley will see more gametime as this new style of second row/blind side flanker comes back into vogue.

                    Backrow - I think if we go with a front five of Killer, Scannell, Ryan, Kleyn and Snyman and a centre pairing of Farrell and De Allende then we have some leeway in how the backrow is structured. POM and CJ are the two nailed on starters in our backrow but the third position is very much up for grabs. Beirne, Wycherley, Coombes, TOD, JOD and JOS all have genuine shouts to push on for that spot. Beirne would be an alternative at 6 but it does leave CJ as the only heavy ball carrier in the back row with this combo. Wycherley could fill the 6 jersey in a similar mould to how England have looked to use Courtney Lawes. Both Wycherley and Beirne at 6 cause POM to shift to openside. I don't think that matters too much as Beirne acts like an openside at the breakdown and picking Wycherley would likely be a specific set up for a specific opponent. Coombes and JOS are both longer shots as they primarily fill the 8 jersey and act as ball carriers with Coombes in particular looking to have the frame to do damage. JOD and TOD could both play seven with CJ and POM in the back row and this along with Beirne look to be the more likely combinations at least at the start of the season. Cloete offers the traditional openside role but i think in some ways POM and Beirne if used in tandem could easily fill that role without giving away the silly pens. Cloete is likely to be under pressure from Hodnett this season for the Pro14 gametime.

                    If i was picking a starting pack for Europe right now it would be
                    Killer, Scannell, Ryan, Kleyn, Snyman, Beirne, POM, CJ
                    Subs - O'Byrne, Loughman, Archer Wycherley, JOD

                    From a tactical point of view that allows dynamic carriers in Killer, Snyman and CJ in the pack along with De Allende and Farrell in midfield. Scannell, Ryan and Kleyn can carry in the tight and POM and Beirne offer wider threats with ball in hand.
                    If Munster continue with the 2-3-2-1 i would expect to see something like Kleyn and Ryan as the first 2, Synman, Killer and Scannell in the 3, POM/Beirne and CJ in the two and Beirne/POM as the wider man.
                    The set piece should be very solid with Kleyn and Snyman in the engine room and at lineout we effectively have four first choice jumpers from 4 - 7 with CJ more than capable from touch as well.
                    Would you not think JOD has been either the best or 2nd best backrow you had this season and deserves a place on form?

                    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by B.A. View Post
                      To be honest I think we have some players who are actually good enough to influence a game singlehandedly, Murray for one has been very disappointing in that regard. I recently watched the game Vs the all blacks (2013 I think?) where we lost by 2 points. I'd forgotten how bloody good he can be, he could almost walk on water in that match yet he never really pushed on to be a great leader in Munster. I believe he still has that ability. JOD is another who I think will be one of those players. With the addition of proven winners like Snyman and De Allende I'd be hoping it will be a shot in the arm for players to actually step up and believe in themselves.
                      Murrays style of 'leadership' is to show coolness under fire - which he has done consistently and taken responsilbity when opportunities have risen. The fact that his form fell off a cliff - meant we didnt see as much of that as previously.
                      ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                      Originally Posted by mr chips
                      AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
                        Would you not think JOD has been either the best or 2nd best backrow you had this season and deserves a place on form?

                        Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
                        Agree that JOD was in brilliant form this season but for me he's a bit of a utility backrow and i think he's the back up to POM. He offers good lineout, brilliant maul defence and a strong wide carry. A backrow of POM, JOD and CJ is almost three 6.5's if you know what I mean. One of the best defensive performances I have seen from Munster was the game in Thomond against Exeter. They used POM and Beirne alternating against a possession offence similar to that of Leinster to great effect. Exeter were forced to commit more numbers into the breakdown to counteract the threat of the two. Previously we lack the ball carriers and big physical threats to compete with the very best best teams with both of them in the pack but adding Snyman and De Allende in midfield now gives us that option. I wouldn't have any problem with JOD being picked at 7 and its merely a personal preference to have Beirne ahead of him.
                        \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                        \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                        I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

                          Murrays style of 'leadership' is to show coolness under fire - which he has done consistently and taken responsilbity when opportunities have risen. The fact that his form fell off a cliff - meant we didnt see as much of that as previously.
                          Just a personal theory but Murray really shone when he was the decision maker. With both Rassie and Joe it wasn't necessarily about the speed of the service but making sure that the pods/players were in position and that we didn't loose possession. Thats not to say that Murray can't move the ball quickly just that wasn't what his primary directive was. He organised the players, he waved his hands at the breakdown, he waited for the pods to be set and he took on the kicking duties to relieve pressure or make it contestable.

                          Now under Larkham there is less decision making required from 9 and more on 10 and wider out. Between the neck injury and change in style its taking Murray a while to settle into this especially with the World Cup and downtime. While bossing forwards and leadership is still needed at 9, a breaking scrum half with quick service to the first receiver looking to move the ball at pace is now required.
                          \"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer

                          \"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne

                          I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by overthehillprop View Post

                            Just a personal theory but Murray really shone when he was the decision maker. With both Rassie and Joe it wasn't necessarily about the speed of the service but making sure that the pods/players were in position and that we didn't loose possession. Thats not to say that Murray can't move the ball quickly just that wasn't what his primary directive was. He organised the players, he waved his hands at the breakdown, he waited for the pods to be set and he took on the kicking duties to relieve pressure or make it contestable.

                            Now under Larkham there is less decision making required from 9 and more on 10 and wider out. Between the neck injury and change in style its taking Murray a while to settle into this especially with the World Cup and downtime. While bossing forwards and leadership is still needed at 9, a breaking scrum half with quick service to the first receiver looking to move the ball at pace is now required.
                            Fully agree OTHP
                            "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                            Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                            Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                            Comment


                              Great analysis OTHP - that never would have occurred to me about Murray.
                              Tis but a scratch.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

                                Murrays style of 'leadership' is to show coolness under fire - which he has done consistently and taken responsilbity when opportunities have risen. The fact that his form fell off a cliff - meant we didnt see as much of that as previously.
                                I agree, Ice cool, managed to play the game at his own pace, also nicks tries from unpromising close in situations, simply because of his speed of thought and attention to detail. His firm certainly suffered, but 9s can’t play without a pack that’s at least holding its own, and a dependable 10. Like Zebo he can appear to be making little effort, but that seriously understated how involved he really is. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to see improvement!

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