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    #76
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



    That's not the level it works on though. The issue is that he's pieced together a series of disparate events over a number of years and cobbled them into a retrospective narrative that just doesn't hold water.

    Yes, there was pressure on Axel, and in retrospect it's easy (and right) to say that the perspective of the time seems like folly now. But go to English's book on When Munster Beat the All Blacks and you'll see Locky talking about the fact that what made Limerick rugby what it was was the fact that players would get called in the club house if they weren't delivering. ROG talked before the HEC final about living and working among "our people" and being able to look them in the eye.

    There's always a balance, but there's never been some halcyon age in which under-performing players and coaches were given unequivocal support, and that pressure cooker was lauded as a strength of the provincial game on several occasions.

    I'm not defending what happened to Keatley or to Axle. But the writers diagnosis is severely off. If anything, I think those periods of excessive criticism were sparked at least in part by the mythologising of the Munster crowd as being a knowledgeable and demanding support base that wouldn't hesitate to call a spade a spade.

    And none of that has anything at all to do with the response to Vunipola, and the crowd booing him has nothing to do with one eejit deciding to be an eejit.

    He's weaving gossamer into ****e.
    Look, I'm not going to argue with you on MacKenna. He's cobbled together a load of grievances into something reasonably coherent but still a bit desperate.

    I think he does have a point on the pressure on Axel. I don't think the pressure he was under was particularly unusual for the manager of a professional team, but I think maybe there is a disconnect between the so-called Munster ethos (or the rugby ethos in general, as I don't think Leinster or other provinces are any different) and the criticism meted out to him as a professional. Either Munster/rugby is special and "this is not soccer" or this kind of criticism is normal and acceptable. I don't think Irish rugby in general has addressed this contradiction and people across provinces want to think we have different values in rugby but can also act like supporters of other sports.

    But yeah, in general I think the booing of Vunipola was right and I'll fully back the Munster fans who did so.

    Comment


      #77
      We do put pressure on players and coaches- and it has been painfully evident over the years. As BB and others have observed, at least for the local players - they would feel it even if things weren’t said at games on fora- because they players also buy into the ethos that is Munster rugby. It is a proud tradition, but can be a harsh one.

      Axel seemed very keen to get the top job, and he gathered round him a team of coaches that were Munster to the core. I remember one very proud day at Thomond, when every player in Red was local, coached by locals ... but that romantic dream became a bit of a nightmare, as we saw month after month they simply weren’t good enough, players and coaches both, to achieve at the levels we all (them included) wanted. Rassie, thankfully, rescued us from all that, waking us from the nightmare dream. The problem with legends is that they are an expurgated and romanticised view of the past- you cannot live in a legend, or live up to one.

      Generally we behave well as a crowd, but it’s not, and has never been perfect. I like the fierce respect we have, the silence before kicks (wish some d@ckheads didn’t see it as an opportunity to get air tine), the way the Fields /Suaf rolls around the ground, the respect we show for our own and opposition players at the end. We are probably not unique, not necessarily the best fans, but we are proud of our game, our team and our achievements. I hate it when we let ourselves down- we do, and have done, but we also pull it back to that precious core value- respect.

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
        We do put pressure on players and coaches- and it has been painfully evident over the years. As BB and others have observed, at least for the local players - they would feel it even if things weren’t said at games on fora- because they players also buy into the ethos that is Munster rugby. It is a proud tradition, but can be a harsh one.

        Axel seemed very keen to get the top job, and he gathered round him a team of coaches that were Munster to the core. I remember one very proud day at Thomond, when every player in Red was local, coached by locals ... but that romantic dream became a bit of a nightmare, as we saw month after month they simply weren’t good enough, players and coaches both, to achieve at the levels we all (them included) wanted. Rassie, thankfully, rescued us from all that, waking us from the nightmare dream. The problem with legends is that they are an expurgated and romanticised view of the past- you cannot live in a legend, or live up to one.

        Generally we behave well as a crowd, but it’s not, and has never been perfect. I like the fierce respect we have, the silence before kicks (wish some d@ckheads didn’t see it as an opportunity to get air tine), the way the Fields /Suaf rolls around the ground, the respect we show for our own and opposition players at the end. We are probably not unique, not necessarily the best fans, but we are proud of our game, our team and our achievements. I hate it when we let ourselves down- we do, and have done, but we also pull it back to that precious core value- respect.
        I don't disagree with any of that and, even though I said I think MacKenna had a kernel of a point, I don't agree with his implication there was anything particularly untoward about how some fans treated Axel and Keatley. They are professionals and they both handled the pressure as consummate professionals. Nor would I suggest the pressure had anything to do with Axel's tragic passing.

        But I do think sometimes people need to acknowledge that Munster Rugby is now a professional organisation and that fans treating players and coaches like professionals is not only inevitable but part of the package, whereas some seem to still think the "this is not soccer" thing applies. Again, I'm not ragging on Munsterfans at all in this as I'd expect the same thing in Leinster or elsewhere.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

          I don't disagree with any of that and, even though I said I think MacKenna had a kernel of a point, I don't agree with his implication there was anything particularly untoward about how some fans treated Axel and Keatley. They are professionals and they both handled the pressure as consummate professionals. Nor would I suggest the pressure had anything to do with Axel's tragic passing.

          But I do think sometimes people need to acknowledge that Munster Rugby is now a professional organisation and that fans treating players and coaches like professionals is not only inevitable but part of the package, whereas some seem to still think the "this is not soccer" thing applies. Again, I'm not ragging on Munsterfans at all in this as I'd expect the same thing in Leinster or elsewhere.

          I'm just not sure about the "professionalism" angle you're referencing. I've spent manys an hour in a junior club house having my balls broken after a bad game by a half pissed alickadoo.

          It's always been part of the game, not just since professionalism. Playing rugby for a high profile local club has always brought a degree of pressure.

          Maybe it's more apparent and visible now, and maybe media scrutiny makes it worse. Maybe not having a day job to distract you makes it more marked.

          But the average Limerick terrace has always carried a reasonable freight of judgement. It's never been a kindergarten
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
            But the average Limerick terrace has always carried a reasonable freight of judgement. It's never been a kindergarten
            The definition of what was reasonable always was a tad looser in Limerick too. Your 'average' point was set to 'savage' and good luck trying to keep track of the highs and lows either side of it.

            Something else which I think is important - was hard at times to not take personally what some sideline warrior or alickadoo might have been saying to your face after a game in the old days, but two things are worth remembering; firstly, at least they were saying it to your face, pissed or not; damn sight better than behind your back - or via a keyboard, anonymously; and secondly, the criticism or advice was more than likely coming from a fella who had at some stage in the past been that soldier, not just some entitled event junkie.

            Professionalism has changed everything.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

              I don't disagree with any of that and, even though I said I think MacKenna had a kernel of a point, I don't agree with his implication there was anything particularly untoward about how some fans treated Axel and Keatley. They are professionals and they both handled the pressure as consummate professionals. Nor would I suggest the pressure had anything to do with Axel's tragic passing.

              But I do think sometimes people need to acknowledge that Munster Rugby is now a professional organisation and that fans treating players and coaches like professionals is not only inevitable but part of the package, whereas some seem to still think the "this is not soccer" thing applies. Again, I'm not ragging on Munsterfans at all in this as I'd expect the same thing in Leinster or elsewhere.
              The flip side is that we also need to acknowledge that, in the professional era, money talks and we can’t expect miracles of every coach the minute he walks in the door. We’re up against teams like Saracens, who have massive cash behind them and have had for a good number of years now. There will be times when, even when we get our structures, our facilities and our coaching staff right, we’ll find it difficult to compete with a Sarries, a Toulon (or indeed a Leinster, who have a fundamental advantage in player numbers).

              Munster has (belatedly) made great strides in recent years with the single training base and academy. There’s plenty to do but, as Axel might have said, while it’s not yet as good as we want it to be, it’s not as bad as some say it is either. If it was we wouldn’t be where we are in Europe or the Pro14, but those last couple of steps to the top are the hardest.

              I’d really love some decent journo to do a proper piece on where things stand in the organisation now, and where the real remaining problems lie. Hatchet jobs by rags like the Indo and Leinster fanboys like Cummiskey are so OTT as to be meaningless.

              Comment


                #82
                Normally, as most of you probably know, when you buy a programme in a Thomond Park the Irish Independent comes with it.
                However, since that “article” was written there has been no newspaper just the programs at the last home games since.

                It’s probably nothing more than a happy coincidence but I’d like to think it’s a fck you to the Irish Independent from Munster rugby.
                The Maul is Back!! LONG LIVE THE MAUL!!

                Stringer is bigger even than his own immense shadow. Pound for pound, he is the best tackler in the world. If you put him into bag of cats he\'d come out without a scratch. He was hit very late for Murphy\'s try. And when he got up, as we knew he would, the crowd cried his name as if he had just fixed the economy.Billy Keane-After Munster\'s famous loss to the AB\'s.

                The Bull-Truly irreplaceable, a mountain of a man. 100 caps!!

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by Stringer9 View Post
                  Normally, as most of you probably know, when you buy a programme in a Thomond Park the Irish Independent comes with it.
                  However, since that “article” was written there has been no newspaper just the programs at the last home games since.

                  It’s probably nothing more than a happy coincidence but I’d like to think it’s a fck you to the Irish Independent from Munster rugby.
                  I'd like to think my e-mail to the MRSC as outlined in Post 51 above had an effect on the above, but maybe not.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Indo forced to issue apology over Franno's ravings

                    https://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...-38148714.html

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Crazyemerald View Post
                      Indo forced to issue apology over Franno's ravings

                      https://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...-38148714.html
                      An apology to the 2 boys and a correction of facts re Munster Rugby...........About time the Dublin press was taken on.
                      Anybody who sees a psychiatrist would want their head examined.*&nb sp;Henry Ford

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by Crazyemerald View Post
                        Indo forced to issue apology over Franno's ravings

                        https://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...-38148714.html
                        Thanks for posting- the only thing worth reading in the Indo.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Yeah, they should publish it on tissue paper!!
                          ____________________________________________
                          Munster were great when they were Munster.

                          alas they are just north munster now.......
                          ____________________________________________

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Try reading him to the voice of “your drunk limerick aunt” used by Blindboy

                            “One, Fineen needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Two, whenever Fineen’s not on field, all the other players should be asking 'Where's Fineen?

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by cornerboy View Post

                              An apology to the 2 boys and a correction of facts re Munster Rugby...........About time the Dublin press was taken on.
                              I didn't see much of an apology. The online version I read said that they are happy to correct the record. This of course accepts that the article was factually incorrect, but doesn't apologise for any injury, offence etc.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                "Neil Francis and the Sunday Independent apologise to both Felix Jones and Jerry Flannery."

                                Right at the very end here

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