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    #61
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    One of the challenges is that the style is good enough to deal with what we face throughout the year- it’s only at this stage that we see that beating top class opposition, away from home, when the chips are down is beyond us. JVG has now seen this twice, once after a bizarre /tragic year, when he’d not settled in, and this year when he has had a full normal season.

    It’s not ‘circumstances’, we just don’t have the game to win away when it matters against quality opposition (Eg Leinster, Glasgow away). For example, add Joey etc in, play in Limerick, even in a knock out game, could we beat Sarries? (I’d say Yes, more often than they would beat us in the same circumstances).

    We need to develop the game to win away- and target those really tough away fixtures in our normal season (inc HCUP), as a way of benchmarking progress. It’s too late to get to this stage of the year and realise we haven’t improved enough. The widespread recognition that we need to invest in our coaching ticket is the first step to changing things- it will be fascinating to see who we get.
    While we have had enough throughout the season, we have still made it very difficult for ourselves, and I believe an effective gameplan will lead to us pulling away from the non-contender teams.

    On the point of the attacking coach, whereas in previous years Munster may not have been the most exciting prospect, given age profile of the squad and two training centres, now, i feel Munster should be very attractive to coaches that want to be able to coach a top side

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      #62
      Originally posted by Sketchy View Post

      While we have had enough throughout the season, we have still made it very difficult for ourselves, and I believe an effective gameplan will lead to us pulling away from the non-contender teams.

      On the point of the attacking coach, whereas in previous years Munster may not have been the most exciting prospect, given age profile of the squad and two training centres, now, i feel Munster should be very attractive to coaches that want to be able to coach a top side
      I know what you mean, but it’s not the non-contenders we need to pull away from- it’s to reach and overtake the contenders. I couldn’t care less whether we beat southern kings or dragons by 20 points or 50 points- I would want our emerging /back up players to be capable of dependably securing victories in these fixtures.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by Sketchy View Post

        While we have had enough throughout the season, we have still made it very difficult for ourselves, and I believe an effective gameplan will lead to us pulling away from the non-contender teams.

        On the point of the attacking coach, whereas in previous years Munster may not have been the most exciting prospect, given age profile of the squad and two training centres, now, i feel Munster should be very attractive to coaches that want to be able to coach a top side
        The age profile of our squad worries me - our arguably world class players are all pushing or over 30 - CJ, POM, Murray, Earls. Kilcyone and Ryan are also 30. If they havent peaked they are pretty damned close. Carbery is potentially world class but not there yet. And I dont see many coming of the quality of those.

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          #64
          Originally posted by Chrizzzie View Post
          For years our attacking plan was PoC and DoC on the wing

          Under Penney. He was here 2 seasons and got to the HEC semis in both those seasons. He got drawn away against Clermont and Toulon and came very close to beating them.


          That style of play wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it was a hell of a lot better than what we have now and Pat Lam won the pro12 playing the same way with Connacht. It was only in his 3rd season when things clicked.
          ​​

          ​​

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            #65
            Originally posted by dropkick View Post

            and Pat Lam won the pro12 playing the same way with Connacht. It was only in his 3rd season when things clicked.
            ​​

            ​​
            Glasgow and Scarlets have the same attack strategy I believe.

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              #66
              Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

              I know what you mean, but it’s not the non-contenders we need to pull away from- it’s to reach and overtake the contenders. I couldn’t care less whether we beat southern kings or dragons by 20 points or 50 points- I would want our emerging /back up players to be capable of dependably securing victories in these fixtures.
              Agreed

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                #67
                Originally posted by Yatenga View Post

                The age profile of our squad worries me - our arguably world class players are all pushing or over 30 - CJ, POM, Murray, Earls. Kilcyone and Ryan are also 30. If they havent peaked they are pretty damned close. Carbery is potentially world class but not there yet. And I dont see many coming of the quality of those.
                I reckon we have three (maybe two) years to win some silverware, before we enter the dreaded Transition Period. A good gameplan though should mean we can bring younger, less experienced players into the fold earlier, and hopefully the transition is less severe than previous

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by Yatenga View Post

                  The age profile of our squad worries me - our arguably world class players are all pushing or over 30 - CJ, POM, Murray, Earls. Kilcyone and Ryan are also 30. If they havent peaked they are pretty damned close. Carbery is potentially world class but not there yet. And I dont see many coming of the quality of those.
                  You never can though, until they do. A lad like Casey could turn out to be world class, and there will be others.

                  Our production line is much better than it was IMHO. I’m not that concerned about the long term. I’d just like to see these lads win for their own sakes as well as ours.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Yatenga View Post

                    The age profile of our squad worries me - our arguably world class players are all pushing or over 30 - CJ, POM, Murray, Earls. Kilcyone and Ryan are also 30. If they havent peaked they are pretty damned close. Carbery is potentially world class but not there yet. And I dont see many coming of the quality of those.
                    It's a valid point, I agree with you. There's probably three seasons in which this Cup can be won with the core of international players still firing. Even if we had Donnacha Ryan and Simon Zebo in the squad that would be true.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Mr Snrub View Post

                      It's a valid point, I agree with you. There's probably three seasons in which this Cup can be won with the core of international players still firing. Even if we had Donnacha Ryan and Simon Zebo in the squad that would be true.
                      Making sure you give younger players the opportunity and a decent prospect of playing both lengthens the shelf life of the experienced players, and gives you a good sense of whether you have enough coming through. I realise it may be frustrating for fans not seeing the big names so often, but its the best way ensuring we have a squad capable of winning things, even when those guys are not as capable as they were. I think the coaches did a good job of rotating players this year (some of it was enforced), but as I said above getting our younger players to the level where they can put away the weaker Pro14 teams means we have a real step up in quality when we play contenders- a bit like the midweek and test teams when the Lions tour.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        I'm not so sure.

                        Is our relatively toothless attack a coaching issue, or a skills issue, or a tactical issue, or is it something else?

                        By way of example Sarries early on in the semi final did a lot of box kicking. The difference is they won the contestables, they owned the collisions and the breakdown too. They had a big edge
                        in possession and territory. Their scrum half had all day to make decisions.

                        We lived on snippets of pressurised possession and had to bust a gut retaining relatively bad ball. We also made a huge defensive effort staying in the contest until half time.

                        I'm thinking our attacking issues are largely caused up front.

                        In any game in recent memory where we've had a decent amount of quality possession we've scored plenty of tries.

                        Just my own view.
                        Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                        Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

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                          #72
                          https://www.the42.ie/chris-farrell-m...13401-May2019/

                          Doesn't bode well for Felix. I wonder is it in his best interest to head off for a few years (a la ROG), and come back later in his career, when he has been exposed to different styles of play. Bringing in somebody to take over the reins in attack, while keeping him on in some capacity would effectively be a demotion. I'd prefer to see the former than the latter.

                          Does anybody know is there a dedicated skills coach in the academy or senior team? The passing of our backs, not to mention our forwards, is lightyears behind what you see from kiwi teams in Super rugby. Would love to see us snap up a young skills coach from NZ, and bring him into the fold for the academy (and younger) players

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Sketchy View Post
                            https://www.the42.ie/chris-farrell-m...13401-May2019/

                            Doesn't bode well for Felix. I wonder is it in his best interest to head off for a few years (a la ROG), and come back later in his career, when he has been exposed to different styles of play. Bringing in somebody to take over the reins in attack, while keeping him on in some capacity would effectively be a demotion. I'd prefer to see the former than the latter.

                            Does anybody know is there a dedicated skills coach in the academy or senior team? The passing of our backs, not to mention our forwards, is lightyears behind what you see from kiwi teams in Super rugby. Would love to see us snap up a young skills coach from NZ, and bring him into the fold for the academy (and younger) players
                            I think Felix is fine. JvG has as much responsibility for 'attack' as Felix does as far as I can see.

                            After a coaching fact finding trip to NZ last summer Felix was asked what he'd learned over there and said that the main lesson was routine skills sessions at the start of all training sessions. So he brought that in this season at Munster.

                            Rassie was also impressed with Felix during his time and the players are also fans.

                            So, I don't think there's any threat to his position. That's not to presume that he intends to stay on. I just don't believe an extra voice in the coaching staff means a replacement for someone there already.

                            We also played Saracens without either of our two top try scorers in the comp and our most inventive attacking players, which never helps.
                            Last edited by rathbaner; 1st-May-2019, 11:57.
                            Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                              I think Felix is fine. JvG has as much responsibility for 'attack' as Felix does as far as I can see.

                              After a coaching fact finding trip to NZ last summer Felix was asked what he'd learned over there and said that the main lesson was routine skills sessions at the start of all training sessions. So he brought that in this season at Munster.

                              Rassie was also impressed with Felix during his time and the players are also fans.

                              So, I don't think there's any threat to his position. That's not to presume that he intends to stay on. I just don't believe an extra voice in the coaching staff means a replacement for someone there already.

                              We also played Saracens without either of our two top try scorers in the comp and our most inventive attacking players, which never helps.
                              I think the Carbery and Earls missing for Saracens point, seems to assume we have had a perceptible attacking structure outside of the Saracens game, which couldn't be further from the reality in my view. We have failed throughout the season to show a cohesive gameplan. We just happened to have better players than the teams we played and beat. The victories were still unimpressive. We absolutely struggled to get past a plucky Edinburgh, and then were completely found out against Saracens.

                              I do agree that JvG probably has as much to do with our failure in attach as Felix, and I personally wasn't in favour of extending his contract before he even completed a full season with the club. We had him tied down next year anyway. i don't think it was a wise decision, and screamed of the Pre-World cup Kidney and EOS extensions that made no sense at the time either. I do get the argument from posters that we need some stability at the very top, but if that is the case then that means the coaching needs a serious shake-up.

                              I agree that Felix will probably stay on, but I wonder is it in Munster's and Felix's best interest. To date he has only been exposed to the Munster and for a short period, the Irish way. The trip to NZ wasn't long enough, and while he may have picked up the idea of the skills sessions, it isn't his area of expertise, and I don't know if 6 weeks would have meant he came away a skills guru. I accept he may one day make a great coach, but at 31 he seems very far away from achieving that level and my opinion (for what it's worth) is that he should take a leaf out of ROG's book and see how the best in the business do it, and learn more than just the Munster one out runner, boxkick, and odd backs move way. The World of rugby has moved on, and it's that time we caught up.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
                                I'm not so sure.

                                Is our relatively toothless attack a coaching issue, or a skills issue, or a tactical issue, or is it something else?

                                By way of example Sarries early on in the semi final did a lot of box kicking. The difference is they won the contestables, they owned the collisions and the breakdown too. They had a big edge
                                in possession and territory. Their scrum half had all day to make decisions.

                                We lived on snippets of pressurised possession and had to bust a gut retaining relatively bad ball. We also made a huge defensive effort staying in the contest until half time.

                                I'm thinking our attacking issues are largely caused up front.

                                In any game in recent memory where we've had a decent amount of quality possession we've scored plenty of tries.

                                Just my own view.
                                Against both Exeter and Leinster we had loads of possession and failed to convert. Same story against almost all the better defences over the last few years.

                                I agree that it starts up front. We seek the ruck too easily, using isolated runners, and if we don't succeed in blasting the opposition out of the breakdown then our ball is irretrievably slowed. We need much more dynamism and evasion in that department - lay offs, guys sniping off each other more rapidly.

                                We also need to ability to create line breaks though, and that's partly an issue of our backs running off static ball.

                                I think the key is that the idea that "attacking" is a function of the backs coach is an obsolete one. We need an overarching attack strategy that everyone, regardless of position, is totally clear on, whether we want to base that on territory, or more expansive play.

                                At the moment, the vast majority of our tries come essentially by attrition - recycling and running and recycling and running until the opposition run out of bodies. Much like a limited boxer, if we look up after our flurry of fury and the other guy is still there, we're pretty much ****ed for a plan B.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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