Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Coaching Team

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #31
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    How many repetitions of "good enough but didn't" add up to a "not good enough" though?

    I think we're too easily defended against by top teams, and have been for a good long while.

    We get plenty of ball in almost all games, plenty of territory in most, but we don't have the wit or guile to stretch and challenge top tier defences who need more than pummeling into submission.

    Exeter away this year remains the clearest demonstration of our situation. Huge passion and energy, won all the ball, parked in their 22 for long stretches. But no plan beyond hoping one of them fell off a tackle.
    I agree with your ‘how many repetitions...’ comment, but it’s too early in the season to conclude that we don’t have the extra we needed beyond last year in order to win something. We have added considerably to our playing strength over last year- Joey vs any of the other 10s, Alby over Duncan, Beirne over Billy, and inexperienced lads with another year under their belt. Lose in Edinburgh, or subsequently to ?Sarries, and to Leinster in a PRo14 Avila semi, and serious questions should not only be asked- but answered.

    I also that too often our tactics seem based on repeat fairly basic stuff until the other side makes a mistake, or we do. There are glimpses of better this season, but I don’t see us changing our game completely, we need to add rapier to the bludgeon. This doesn’t only depend on our 10, but that’s where I’d expect the on field orchestration of that to come from. We haven’t had the player there, consistently fit and in form to do that, and I’m not sure developing tactically beyond what our players were capable of is that sensible.

    i disagree completely about Exeter. We faced what was the firm premiership team, at home, with- the Avila game aside, patchy away form, Duncan starting and people wanting Stafford or Poland to bench. Joey was raw (as we saw in Castre he has a way to go in real pressure situations- but only going through these games will address this), and conditions that both sides really struggled with. I don’t know if you were there, but the wind had to be experienced to be believed. Both sides played essentially the same game, and Duncan’s tackle was literally match-saving, if we had slick stuff in our locker that wasn’t the day to take it out and flaunt it. For me the disappointing HCUP game this year was Castre away- we could and should have one that, we lacked the nous to do so.

    I think we are better placed this year to win a trophy, but we will need a slice or two of luck to do so. I suspect we are not yet good enough to do so, and we may not yet have the tactical range to be able to win in if our typical play isn’t enough. I think we have a team/squad now more capable of doing so, and yes, if we don’t win something, or get to one or more finals, we the questions we need to be asking are about those in the stands rather than in the pitch. I think it’s just too soon to answer these questions (but I do agree that in principal the one dimensional try til you or the other guy fails should not be the height or our tactical aspiration).



    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
      ......
      I'd also add to Lawrence's "The Good" by noting the introduction of, or added experience the likes of Fineen, BJ, Goggin, Coombes, Cronin, and a few more have had this season. It hasnt always been through choice, but we are developing some fine young players as well as getting towards the end of the season more or less where we'd like to be at this stage, and were last season...second (until Glasgow play Leinster) in the pro14, and a winnable quarter final in HCUP... but with a noticeably stronger side.
      +1
      With some more on the u20s. I've been watching our Academy and B&I teams when I can, and we have some fabulous talent on the way. Brilliant to see the players develop.

      Regarding the thread topic, we have huffed and puffed against better defences (Scotland against Wales yesterday reminded me of some of our matches) and smarter tactics are required. We certainly have the talent to win one or more cups this year.
      Has Fineen put Johnny down yet?

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post



        i disagree completely about Exeter. We faced what was the firm premiership team, at home, with- the Avila game aside, patchy away form, Duncan starting and people wanting Stafford or Poland to bench. Joey was raw (as we saw in Castre he has a way to go in real pressure situations- but only going through these games will address this), and conditions that both sides really struggled with. I don’t know if you were there, but the wind had to be experienced to be believed. Both sides played essentially the same game, and Duncan’s tackle was literally match-saving, if we had slick stuff in our locker that wasn’t the day to take it out and flaunt it. For me the disappointing HCUP game this year was Castre away- we could and should have one that, we lacked the nous to do so.




        It was a fairly unpopular view at the time, but I've not really changed my mind. The wind, the quality of the opposition and their form, the line up and availability - all those things matter until you're ten metres out with the ball.

        Once you're ten metres out with the ball, you've overcome those factors. And we did. And fair play to the team for that.

        But it doesn't change the fact that with the ball, the position, and the time (no matter how hard won those things were), we couldn't convert.

        If anything, all of the other merits of that performance and the massive effort and execution it required made the inability to win that game worse.

        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by dropkick View Post


          The difference between JVG and Lam/Townsend/Pivac is those 3 changed the way their teams played. Glasgow and Connacht were bottom of the table teams while Scarlets were a mid table side.


          Rob Penney might not have the best record but he was trying to bring in a totally different style of play but there was obvious resistance to that.
          Yep, I think you've got a point there however the mindset was certainly different to the Munster one in the three you mention. All three lads realised they hadn't the pack heft to go toe to toe with an enormous opposition like Sarries Leinster Racing etc

          I'd also say we are more akin to test rugby than provincial in our approach to the game. Leinster for many years were an incredible team to watch playing rhaaanning rhhhagby but couldn't get it done until they produced a few hard nosed forwards, it took a tweak toward being bastards to get it done.

          Lam Pivac and Townsend never really shot a bolt in Europe either though, it looks pretty but it won't get you the Heineken Cup nor, as Townsend is learning perennially wins at test level.


          Balla has encapsulated the problem best, when we get into the opposition 22 we are almost as one dimensional as we have been in many a year. I'm hopeful the more Carbery grows the less that this will be an issue but for me the Crux is midfield -

          Scannell Taute Goggin Arnold (4 bosh clones and three of them are small in the modern hame)

          The only locksmith we have is Farrell or occasionally Tyler at first centre.

          A playmaking 12 would be top of the wish list for me. The position is open to strengthen
          I am the million man.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

            Yep, I think you've got a point there however the mindset was certainly different to the Munster one in the three you mention. All three lads realised they hadn't the pack heft to go toe to toe with an enormous opposition like Sarries Leinster Racing etc

            I'd also say we are more akin to test rugby than provincial in our approach to the game. Leinster for many years were an incredible team to watch playing rhaaanning rhhhagby but couldn't get it done until they produced a few hard nosed forwards, it took a tweak toward being bastards to get it done.

            Lam Pivac and Townsend never really shot a bolt in Europe either though, it looks pretty but it won't get you the Heineken Cup nor, as Townsend is learning perennially wins at test level.


            Balla has encapsulated the problem best, when we get into the opposition 22 we are almost as one dimensional as we have been in many a year. I'm hopeful the more Carbery grows the less that this will be an issue but for me the Crux is midfield -

            Scannell Taute Goggin Arnold (4 bosh clones and three of them are small in the modern hame)

            The only locksmith we have is Farrell or occasionally Tyler at first centre.

            A playmaking 12 would be top of the wish list for me. The position is open to strengthen


            If he was physically up to it, Tyler 12/Farrell 13 is our best midfield on paper for me.

            But springing the backs requires a more dynamic approach in the pack too, for me. We're powerful, we turn over a lot of ball, and we keep our own ball. But our carrying is cautious in the tight I think, and that low risk approach leads to the grind. We need to be able to get the pack rolling forward and forcing the opposition defensive line into retreat.

            If you look at how often we complain about opposition rush defences being offside all day, it's actually an indirect indicator of how rarely we're rolling the offside line back.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

              It was a fairly unpopular view at the time, but I've not really changed my mind. The wind, the quality of the opposition and their form, the line up and availability - all those things matter until you're ten metres out with the ball.

              Once you're ten metres out with the ball, you've overcome those factors. And we did. And fair play to the team for that.

              But it doesn't change the fact that with the ball, the position, and the time (no matter how hard won those things were), we couldn't convert.

              If anything, all of the other merits of that performance and the massive effort and execution it required made the inability to win that game worse.
              I think the massive effort got us to within ten yards, and kept us there. I agree we didn’t have anything else to get us any further. Many of us travellers hoping for a bp, especially given the selection challenges. I think we have more going for us now with a fit Murray and joey, Farrell back, cloete coming back to his own and Haley less uncertain in defence. It may not yet be enough, it’s certainly not enough to go in favourites of the four / five teams ahead of us, and to get to that level we certainly need to add more subtlety to our game than we have seen this season (the odd flash aside). I’m still hoping!!!!

              Comment


                #37
                I'm only just catching up on this discussion and it's been a great read. I'm going to add a point raised here a year or more ago (can't remember the poster), when Nienaber was defence coach, but reinforced by one of the reasons Wales dealt comfortably with Scotland, for most of the game at least: a really good defence is an excellent starting point for any attacking team. I don't think (even though our stats are pretty good), we ever got back to the excellent defence we had back then, where we gained serious ground on occasion...without the ball, by simply forcing teams backwards.
                As an attacking tool, I think a better defence should also be considered.

                Comment


                  #38
                  I was worried about our defense earlier in the season but it has really improved since December
                  "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                  Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                  Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post
                    I was worried about our defense earlier in the season but it has really improved since December
                    I think so too- we used to be quite indisciplined, with someone shootingup and leaving space beside/behind. Great when it comes off, embarrassing when too often it didn’t. We seem to have solved that, and now press back very effectively- forcing teams to drop back from the set piece, etc. I think a mixture of better tactics, and players playing more cohesively. Farrell makes a big contribution, as does Joey in a more size appropriate way.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      JP Ferreira has found his groove too I think
                      "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                      Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                      Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                      Comment


                        #41
                        We've such a young coaching group, some might see that as a weakness but to me it's a great attribute.
                        ​​​​​
                        Young folk will work harder and question their own methods far more than established folk.

                        I'm afraid to dream too large about this particular group and season, but if we can just improve even marginally on the fair and reasonable shortcomings outlined we will be there at the end of the season competing.

                        Carbomb + Tadhg is the best recruitment summer we've had in donkey's years. Racing or Sarries would be happy to bring those two aboard like.


                        The drought is hopefully about to end.
                        I am the million man.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          In all the previous neary-but-not-quite moments over the past few years the most obvious commn thread has been our inability to work consistently - over multiple seasons - on developing a style of play due to changes in the coaching ticket. This is probably our best chance for stable coaching ticket looking forward since the departure of McGahan.

                          Van Graan hasn't been here for one complete season yet. FFS.
                          Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2019.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post
                            I was worried about our defense earlier in the season but it has really improved since December
                            I think you're right that we have improved a lot, but do you remember teams with the ball being driven backwards quite a distance? Edinburgh away on a crap night for rugby springs to mind.
                            I wouldn't mind a bit of that again.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
                              In all the previous neary-but-not-quite moments over the past few years the most obvious commn thread has been our inability to work consistently - over multiple seasons - on developing a style of play due to changes in the coaching ticket. This is probably our best chance for stable coaching ticket looking forward since the departure of McGahan.

                              Van Graan hasn't been here for one complete season yet. FFS.
                              There's a palpable and visible difference between teams struggling to adapt to a new philosophy, which we witnessed under Penney, and teams that seem to be devoid of one.

                              Does anyone have any idea what game plan it is that Van Graan needs longer to implement?
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                                There's a palpable and visible difference between teams struggling to adapt to a new philosophy, which we witnessed under Penney, and teams that seem to be devoid of one.

                                Does anyone have any idea what game plan it is that Van Graan needs longer to implement?

                                Exactly. If we were trying to become accustomed to an intricate gameplan, the cries for patience would be warranted, but from what I can see, our gameplan consists of boxkicks, one out running, and the some (often) telegraphed backline move. It's a very basic system that you would see deployed at local clubs throughout the province. If we didn't have Beirne there to get us out of jail 3 to 4 times a game, we would be losing a lot more of those tight games. The attacking culture doesn't have to be flashy, it just needs to be cohesive and effective. Our players look confused, and the deeper into phases we go, the more confusion and handling errors there are. We are getting by on a (now) mean defence, a great pack (which seems to be very well coached) and the individual brilliance of some world class players (of which we have quite a few IMO).

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X