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    #61
    Originally posted by Piquet View Post
    OL, you fail to understand (or pretend not to understand ) that if the Ref pings a team for a particular offence, then, eventually, that team will cease to offend.
    No they dont. And you, chippy and many others seem to think you just need to have x amount more penalties awarded in games. If it was that simple then why dont all pro referees do as ye are suggesting. There is good reason they dont.

    It may take a few matches, but if, as suggested, Refs start to go to town on offside players, consistently and continuously, the penny will eventually drop, as long as the Officials hold their nerve and are backed up by the Administrators.
    Going to town on offside as in penalising every infringement of the offside law just creates frustration as we would have far more penalties and then you just cause over cautious defences and that is far from what is needed in games.

    As PP has pointed out, action was taken on the tip tackle. Once this action was taken and it was accepted that it wasn't the Ref who issued the card that "ruined the game as a spectacle" rather it was the player who was carded, it has been eradicated for the most part.

    Similarly, it won't be the Refs pulling for Offside that will be ruining the game, it will be the players who continue to be offside.
    You cant compare the single nature of a tackle to the moving of defensive lines all through a game.
    And refs mnagement of the offside line doesnt ruin games.

    Comment


      #62
      Folks, I think I'll move all the chat about refereeing to a more appropriate thread later on, both to keep this thread relevant to its original subject and to facilitate any wider/ongoing discussion about officiating.
      EDIT - done. This seems like the most appropriate recent thread.
      Last edited by mr chips; 2nd-May-2019, 18:42.
      Tis but a scratch.

      Comment


        #63
        I really wanted Clermont to win. But Wayne only seemed to ref one side. I know I am wrong OL. But that is just the way it seemed to me,
        I personally hate when I see his name on the match list, probably a really nice guy.

        Comment


          #64
          PK Said
          OL, you fail to understand (or pretend not to understand ) that if the Ref pings a team for a particular offence, then, eventually, that team will cease to offend.

          OL replied:
          No they dont. And you, chippy and many others seem to think you just need to have x amount more penalties awarded in games. If it was that simple then why dont all pro referees do as ye are suggesting. There is good reason they dont.



          PK said:
          It may take a few matches, but if, as suggested, Refs start to go to town on offside players, consistently and continuously, the penny will eventually drop, as long as the Officials hold their nerve and are backed up by the Administrators.


          OL replied
          Going to town on offside as in penalising every infringement of the offside law just creates frustration as we would have far more penalties and then you just cause over cautious defences and that is far from what is needed in games.

          OL, Owen Doyle would appear to disagree with you in today’s Irish Times

          “Applying the law doesn’t lead to a whole lot more penalties, but it does lead to a change in player behaviour, and that’s what is needed.”

          “Without needing to introduce new laws, let’s apply what’s there at the moment.”

          “It’s now impossible to understand why the ball is not thrown in straight – the scrum halves are making the referees look pretty dim when they consistently get away with throwing the ball into the second row”




          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
            ...

            And refs mnagement of the offside line doesnt ruin games.
            It certainly has killed a good few games I've watched this year. again!!
            ____________________________________________
            Munster were great when they were Munster.

            alas they are just north munster now.......
            ____________________________________________

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by Piquet View Post
              PK Said
              OL, you fail to understand (or pretend not to understand ) that if the Ref pings a team for a particular offence, then, eventually, that team will cease to offend.

              OL replied:
              No they dont. And you, chippy and many others seem to think you just need to have x amount more penalties awarded in games. If it was that simple then why dont all pro referees do as ye are suggesting. There is good reason they dont.



              PK said:
              It may take a few matches, but if, as suggested, Refs start to go to town on offside players, consistently and continuously, the penny will eventually drop, as long as the Officials hold their nerve and are backed up by the Administrators.


              OL replied
              Going to town on offside as in penalising every infringement of the offside law just creates frustration as we would have far more penalties and then you just cause over cautious defences and that is far from what is needed in games.

              OL, Owen Doyle would appear to disagree with you in today’s Irish Times

              “Applying the law doesn’t lead to a whole lot more penalties, but it does lead to a change in player behaviour, and that’s what is needed.”

              “Without needing to introduce new laws, let’s apply what’s there at the moment.”

              “It’s now impossible to understand why the ball is not thrown in straight – the scrum halves are making the referees look pretty dim when they consistently get away with throwing the ball into the second row”
              You keep stating this as if it wasnt obvious and that refs are missing something simple. Piquet get on to Alain Rolland as you can tell all refs to do ths....
              You have to have some form of feel for the game. Just penalising everything that infringes the laws isnt the solution and wont stop the laws being broken. It frustrates players if you go harsh on everything and players will always be trying to pull wool over eyes of officials

              Comment


                #67
                A number of things, OL,
                • Owen Doyle would appear to disagree with you. (You would appear to have missed that. It's in Post 64 above, with a link to the whole article)
                • Alain Roland is not, as far as I know, a member of this Site.
                • Your habit of saying "go tell someone else" when you are unable to refute an argument is getting tiresome.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                  You keep stating this as if it wasnt obvious and that refs are missing something simple. Piquet get on to Alain Rolland as you can tell all refs to do ths....
                  You have to have some form of feel for the game. Just penalising everything that infringes the laws isnt the solution and wont stop the laws being broken. It frustrates players if you go harsh on everything and players will always be trying to pull wool over eyes of officials
                  I think PK is bang on here. If refs don’t ping offside and in at the side then players are encouraged and coached to infringe knowing they won’t be penalized and the attacking game rots.

                  If refs are strict on offside and in at the side then players are encouraged and coached not to infringe. Simples

                  as for players being frustrated by strict enforcement of the laws, I don’t agree at all. It’s inconsistent application of the laws or that cause the most frustration.
                  Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                    A number of things, OL,
                    • Owen Doyle would appear to disagree with you. (You would appear to have missed that. It's in Post 64 above, with a link to the whole article)
                    • Alain Roland is not, as far as I know, a member of this Site.
                    • Your habit of saying "go tell someone else" when you are unable to refute an argument is getting tiresome.
                    And if it was this simple then why dont referees at all levels do this? Why are refs not being taught differently? Perhaps because its either not seen as necessary/not what should be done.


                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Oldschoolsocks View Post

                      I think PK is bang on here. If refs don’t ping offside and in at the side then players are encouraged and coached to infringe knowing they won’t be penalized and the attacking game rots.

                      If refs are strict on offside and in at the side then players are encouraged and coached not to infringe. Simples

                      as for players being frustrated by strict enforcement of the laws, I don’t agree at all. It’s inconsistent application of the laws or that cause the most frustration.
                      And ye dont seem to have a feel for the game. You dont always penalise every offence that you see. Otherwise you have a terrible game. Nobody wants games to be decided by the whistle. Infringements should be directly material all the time.
                      Its like at breakdown you dont penalise a player immediately just because you see them go off their feet. You often play on and have a word. Watch your actions at breakdown number (4/7/12 whatever).
                      There will always be players on fringes of being offside you cant pull all/nearly all infringements of the offside law or there is far more


                      Comment


                        #71
                        I find it hard to believe that reffing the game in accordance with the Laws is seen as "not necessary" "not what should be done".

                        ​​​​​​Are you really saying "we don't want to upset/frustrate/annoy the players so we'll go easy on a few of the Laws."

                        Say it ain't so, OL, say it ain't so.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                          And ye dont seem to have a feel for the game. You dont always penalise every offence that you see. Otherwise you have a terrible game. Nobody wants games to be decided by the whistle. Infringements should be directly material all the time.
                          Its like at breakdown you dont penalise a player immediately just because you see them go off their feet. You often play on and have a word. Watch your actions at breakdown number (4/7/12 whatever).
                          There will always be players on fringes of being offside you cant pull all/nearly all infringements of the offside law or there is far more

                          Yes, OL, "you often play on and have a word" but, surely if "a word" doesn't work, you ping and if that doesn't work you ping again until the message gets through.


                          Do you not agree?

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                            I find it hard to believe that reffing the game in accordance with the Laws is seen as "not necessary" "not what should be done".

                            ​​​​​​Are you really saying "we don't want to upset/frustrate/annoy the players so we'll go easy on a few of the Laws."

                            Say it ain't so, OL, say it ain't so.
                            No piquet. every time a player infringes isnt and cant be penalised you have to weigh up more than it. Im not saying reffing the laws as theyre written in the book is not necessary im saying you cant penalise everything and shouldnt as you have to look at what else is going on in each game in terms of where teams are attacking/defending, what is situation of game
                            A ref is there to facilitate a contest. To do this you cant simply just penalise the infringing player with a penalty every time or like you suggest,
                            Maybe its just we have very different ideas on how the game should be played and i want as free flowing a game as possible and you want slower games with more penalties and more dead time within games.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              You, yet again, seem to misunderstand that players will modify their behaviour if such behaviour is penalised consistently.

                              As a result of this modified behaviour, the number of penalties will fall.

                              As a result of the fall in the number of penalties, the game will be more free-floating.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                                You, yet again, seem to misunderstand that players will modify their behaviour if such behaviour is penalised consistently.

                                As a result of this modified behaviour, the number of penalties will fall.

                                As a result of the fall in the number of penalties, the game will be more free-floating.
                                Completely agree. There’s a wider point here- the possibility of being penalised is the basis in which we seek to control all sorts of behaviours (certainty of detection reduces offending, rather than the size of the penalty). I can’t see why off side would be any different to drink driving, speeding etc. You simply make it clear that it will be penalised whenever it happens, show that that’s true- and the behaviour changes rapidly. When it slips back again, remind, penalise if necessary and you’re back in control. It’s getting away with it that encourages us to do it again. Couple of weeks of no tolerance players will toe the line.

                                Comment

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