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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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    Fairly even so far, possibly slightly better performance from remain particularly Ruth davidson (may be my bias)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad.
    - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)

    Comment


      Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post
      The big debate is interesting.

      Sadiq Khan is an impressive politician as is Ruth Davidson
      He's a punchy wee ****er, but I like him :-) Did a bit of canvassing with him in Tooting and he was always very good on the doorstep.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        Boris must be looking across at Stadtler and Waldorf next to him and wondering how it reached this point.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          BallaBoy

          re."The Irish were harassed by the police"

          We were blowing their country up for fecks sake.

          Us calling the British racist is like the pot calling the kettle
          (politically incorrect alert) black.

          We had a state 'run' by the church for 80 years and the nearest we had to multiculturalism was a few token
          (politically incorrect alert) Prods as president etc.
          *
          We are in no position to lecture the British - probably the most racially tolerant country in the worlddddd.(Clarkson* voice)

          * Who can incidentally be fairly labelled a racist in my book.


          Last edited by AdolphusGrigson; 21st-June-2016, 20:04.
          ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

          Originally Posted by mr chips
          AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

          Comment


            Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post
            BallaBoy

            re."The Irish were harassed by the police"

            We were blowing their country up for fecks sake.

            Us calling the British racist is like the pot calling the kettle
            (politically incorrect alert) black.

            We had a state 'run' by the church for 80 years and the nearest we had to multiculturalism was a few token
            (politically incorrect alert) Prods as president etc.
            *
            We are in no position to lecture the British - probably the most racially tolerant country in the worlddddd.(Clarkson* voice)

            * Who can incidentally we fairly labelled a racist in my book.


            I wasn't blowing their country up. Neither were the Birmingham 6 or the Guidlford 4. They were lifted because they were Micks, and a racist police force didn't give a ****.

            Whether the Irish are more racist or not on average is entirely beside the point. The point I was making is that the issues around the discussion of migration that you lay at the door of Political Correctness are better viewed in the context of a long and difficult struggle against racism. One that was largely successful, and left the country a far better one than it was before hand.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post
              I'm not arguing against immigration - I'm arguing against what I see misplaced moral indignation/superiority about the right to discuss the topic without being labelled racist - a significant reason that the Brexit vote will be so high is because political correctness tried and succeeded for years in shutting down any rational debate of the I word.
              So tell me the non racism based reasons why you want to control the number of foreigners?

              Economically immigrant populations tend to pay more in tax than they claim in benefits.

              They do the jobs natives feel are below them.

              They contribute to a richer more diverse society.

              I cannot actually arrive at any anti immigration arguments that aren't racially motivated.





              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

              Comment


                Originally posted by Upfront_1979 View Post
                Fairly even so far, possibly slightly better performance from remain particularly Ruth davidson (may be my bias)


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                It is hard to be completely unbiased in such a debate when you have your mind made up. I agree with you.

                Comment


                  Ruth Davidson is very, very good. This is not an easy thing for me to acknowledge :-)
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    Since when are Australia and New Zealand in NATO???

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Haddock Thrower View Post
                      Since when are Australia and New Zealand in NATO???
                      They're Contact Countries. Japan too. Contribute regularly to NATO missions.
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                        I wasn't blowing their country up. Neither were the Birmingham 6 or the Guidlford 4. They were lifted because they were Micks, and a racist police force didn't give a ****.

                        Whether the Irish are more racist or not on average is entirely beside the point. The point I was making is that the issues around the discussion of migration that you lay at the door of Political Correctness are better viewed in the context of a long and difficult struggle against racism. One that was largely successful, and left the country a far better one than it was before hand.
                        Lets put it like this there is a strong tendency by your goodself and many others to play the race card far too quickly - and playing that card just happens to coincide with the weakest part of the Remain argument and instead of admitting that weakness you simply seek to throw (racist) mud - and that is simply pish-poor.

                        If Remain wins - which hopefully they will - it will be in spite of that pish-poor approach.
                        ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                        Originally Posted by mr chips
                        AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                          They're Contact Countries. Japan too. Contribute regularly to NATO missions.
                          Similar to Partnership for Peace that we're a member of?

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post
                            Lets put it like this there is a strong tendency by your goodself and many others to play the race card far too quickly - and playing that card just happens to coincide with the weakest part of the Remain argument and instead of admitting that weakness you simply seek to throw (racist) mud - and that is simply pish-poor.

                            If Remain wins - which hopefully they will - it will be in spite of that pish-poor approach.
                            That's just not true. The suggestion that it's a deliberate deflection because we secretly know it's an achilles heel? Absolutely not. I reject the arguments because I think they're massively ill informed, and I reject them when they are phrased in racist language, by racists, because I'm opposed to racism.

                            I'm not trying to win points, or win a debate. I'm telling you what I believe, not engaging in some rhetorical strategy.

                            Yours is a circular argument. That immigration is a key weakness in the EU structure, and that people only deny that because they know it's a key weakness and don't want to admit it. So arguments for are evidence for, and arguments against are also evidence for.

                            That, imo, is pish poor.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by upandout View Post
                              So tell me the non racism based reasons why you want to control the number of foreigners?

                              Economically immigrant populations tend to pay more in tax than they claim in benefits.

                              They do the jobs natives feel are below them.

                              They contribute to a richer more diverse society.

                              I cannot actually arrive at any anti immigration arguments that aren't racially motivated.





                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                              There is nothing 'racist' about wanting your own community to reflect the values that you grew up with and not wanting that to change because of the number of people who enter that community with different values to your own. I prefer Ireland and the Irish to the British for example - not because I feel superior in any way - but because they share more of my values - and there are serious concerns of the implications for integration if immigration is too rapid. Immigration should like any other social variable - be sensible and measured.

                              I guess in your politically correct world that makes me a racist - and I'm entirely comfortable with that.
                              ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                              Originally Posted by mr chips
                              AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                                That's just not true. The suggestion that it's a deliberate deflection because we secretly know it's an achilles heel? Absolutely not. I reject the arguments because I think they're massively ill informed, and I reject them when they are phrased in racist language, by racists, because I'm opposed to racism.

                                I'm not trying to win points, or win a debate. I'm telling you what I believe, not engaging in some rhetorical strategy.

                                Yours is a circular argument. That immigration is a key weakness in the EU structure, and that people only deny that because they know it's a key weakness and don't want to admit it. So arguments for are evidence for, and arguments against are also evidence for.

                                That, imo, is pish poor.
                                Your tactic like the Remain tactic is too deny the validity of both arguments where Leave has an advantage(immigration and sovereignty) - just as Leave denies the validity of the economic argument where Remain has an advantage.

                                Very poor debate often characterised by poor journalists not nailing both sides on their respective blind spots.
                                ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                                Originally Posted by mr chips
                                AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                                Comment

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