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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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    The BBC is in a shocking state. Having grilled Corbyn for an hour, and then feted the fall out as evidence of its robust journalism, the BBC has announced that they still haven't been able to fix a date with Johnson for the same interview.

    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


      "Will you apologise for Anti Semitism" is up there with "Can you confirm that you've stopped beating your wife" as a no win question.
      I know its an old one but its BS. It really isn't difficult to answer that second question. If you can't say directly into the camera - "I have never beaten my wife, never would and will sue you if you ever ask my such a defamatory question again" then you shouldn't be running for any public office.

      The AS one is obviously more complex. Corbyn is clearly against the policies being pursued by the State of Israel (and is justified in being so). In this context he has and continues to be bedfellows with Anti-Semites. He needed to draw a line under this years ago. The line would have looked something like this:

      "- I believe that it is the responsibility of those in power to protect the vulnerable. As a backbench MP for many years I have pursued this responsibility by defending and advocating the rights of the displaced Palestinian people and the importance of a two state solution as endorsed by the UN and in both Daton and Oslo. This position has often put me at odds with the position of the State of Israel and in particular its current government.

      - When I became the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition I should have recognized that my power and influence had taken on a new dimension compared to that of a backbench MP and that in addition to defending the rights of vulnerable Palestinians that I bore a great responsibility also to defend the rights of the Jewish community here in the UK who have often been victimized by the far-right and who have always been able to rely on the Labour movement to defend their freedom and their rights. I understand that my opposition to the the polices of the State of Israel has been abused and twisted by certain elements in our society to make Jewish community feel less safe.

      I deeply regret that this is the case and I look forward to continuing to work with the Jewish community to ensure that the Labour movement remains inclusive and a bulwark against the far-right which has been let into government by Boris Johnston and his Brexit cronies. Since the Brexit vote XX thousand Jewish British citizens have applied for German nationality. This is a damning indictment of the madness which the Tory party has brought on the people of this country. When I am Prime Minister I will ensure that all Jewish citizens feel safe in this country and proud of their British identity.
      "

      I banged that out in 5 minutes. The fact that Milne etc can't manage it in 5 years should give an indication that something is wrong because they're clearly not too stupid to do so, they are for some reason unwilling to do so.

      Corbyn's selling point is that he has been on the right side of history in the principled positions he has taken in years as a backbench MP. However being in Government requires more than just being right about the mistakes that others are making, it requires you not to make your own. You can't govern simply by being opposed to things, you have to take a series of positive actions. To me Corbyn is failing that test as a leader of the opposition and it doesn't inspire confidence that he will be able to implement any of his manifesto in office.

      Comment


        Boris looking at a good majority of seats, UK electorate just want Brexit done it seems.

        of course a Con majority would do no such thing.. but it’s the simple slogans that make most resonance
        Nulla semper amicus, servivit mihi, in iniuriam mihi neminem quem non persolvi

        Comment


          Originally posted by Sulla View Post
          Boris looking at a good majority of seats, UK electorate just want Brexit done it seems.

          of course a Con majority would do no such thing.. but it’s the simple slogans that make most resonance
          Its as much to do with the electoral system as what the electorate want. Lab/LD/Greens/SNP/PC combined are polling better than Con/Brexit Party. Too many of the first batch seem to want to stick to their own tribe even if it results in a Tory winning the seat.

          Comment


            Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

            Its as much to do with the electoral system as what the electorate want. Lab/LD/Greens/SNP/PC combined are polling better than Con/Brexit Party. Too many of the first batch seem to want to stick to their own tribe even if it results in a Tory winning the seat.
            Also Corbyn's inability to communicate clearly.. his belief that that what worked at the last election will work again (he actually still got less seats than May..) the Jewish issue he won't/can't get rid off, The Social Dem's absolute car crash campaign, from what only weeks ago was seemingly a position of power, the king makers to also runs..

            the electorate are fed up, Boris knows that, simple campaign, be economical with the truth, play it on their own terms, spread the ****e.. home & hosed
            Nulla semper amicus, servivit mihi, in iniuriam mihi neminem quem non persolvi

            Comment


              Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

              I know its an old one but its BS. It really isn't difficult to answer that second question. If you can't say directly into the camera - "I have never beaten my wife, never would and will sue you if you ever ask my such a defamatory question again" then you shouldn't be running for any public office.

              The AS one is obviously more complex. Corbyn is clearly against the policies being pursued by the State of Israel (and is justified in being so). In this context he has and continues to be bedfellows with Anti-Semites. He needed to draw a line under this years ago. The line would have looked something like this:

              "- I believe that it is the responsibility of those in power to protect the vulnerable. As a backbench MP for many years I have pursued this responsibility by defending and advocating the rights of the displaced Palestinian people and the importance of a two state solution as endorsed by the UN and in both Daton and Oslo. This position has often put me at odds with the position of the State of Israel and in particular its current government.

              - When I became the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition I should have recognized that my power and influence had taken on a new dimension compared to that of a backbench MP and that in addition to defending the rights of vulnerable Palestinians that I bore a great responsibility also to defend the rights of the Jewish community here in the UK who have often been victimized by the far-right and who have always been able to rely on the Labour movement to defend their freedom and their rights. I understand that my opposition to the the polices of the State of Israel has been abused and twisted by certain elements in our society to make Jewish community feel less safe.

              I deeply regret that this is the case and I look forward to continuing to work with the Jewish community to ensure that the Labour movement remains inclusive and a bulwark against the far-right which has been let into government by Boris Johnston and his Brexit cronies. Since the Brexit vote XX thousand Jewish British citizens have applied for German nationality. This is a damning indictment of the madness which the Tory party has brought on the people of this country. When I am Prime Minister I will ensure that all Jewish citizens feel safe in this country and proud of their British identity.
              "

              I banged that out in 5 minutes. The fact that Milne etc can't manage it in 5 years should give an indication that something is wrong because they're clearly not too stupid to do so, they are for some reason unwilling to do so.

              Corbyn's selling point is that he has been on the right side of history in the principled positions he has taken in years as a backbench MP. However being in Government requires more than just being right about the mistakes that others are making, it requires you not to make your own. You can't govern simply by being opposed to things, you have to take a series of positive actions. To me Corbyn is failing that test as a leader of the opposition and it doesn't inspire confidence that he will be able to implement any of his manifesto in office.

              So you're ok with being an Anti Semite yourself, but you have a problem with Corbyn being one,

              Comment


                Originally posted by bazzyg View Post


                So you're ok with being an Anti Semite yourself, but you have a problem with Corbyn being one,
                How exactly do you come to the conclusion that I'm an anti-semite?

                Comment


                  If the British electorate have half a brain between them they'll elect a hung parliament.

                  Comment


                    It's a lazy assumption I made based on your comments,

                    You believe he is justified against the policies of the State of Israel, yet in the same breadth say he continues to be bedfellows with anti Semites, just because he rises to high office does not mean he should 'change' his beliefs, it's more reason to stick to them,

                    Are these bedfellows Anti Semitic or Anti Zionist?

                    Just because the State of Israel takes the view that anyone who is negative to their policies is an anti semite, it does not mean that it is true. It's a line peddled out so often it now has traction, a claim that few challenge because they are so scared of giving a view, for fear of being labelled an anti semite.

                    The lazy assumption takes the Israeli line at face value.


                    I don't think I'd vote for Corbyn, but i felt he was clear on this on the night,

                    More politicians who apologise to appease 'You' (in the Royal sense) are just stooges and We have enough of them.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by bazzyg View Post
                      It's a lazy assumption I made based on your comments,

                      You believe he is justified against the policies of the State of Israel, yet in the same breadth say he continues to be bedfellows with anti Semites, just because he rises to high office does not mean he should 'change' his beliefs, it's more reason to stick to them,

                      Are these bedfellows Anti Semitic or Anti Zionist?

                      Just because the State of Israel takes the view that anyone who is negative to their policies is an anti semite, it does not mean that it is true. It's a line peddled out so often it now has traction, a claim that few challenge because they are so scared of giving a view, for fear of being labelled an anti semite.

                      The lazy assumption takes the Israeli line at face value.


                      I don't think I'd vote for Corbyn, but i felt he was clear on this on the night,

                      More politicians who apologise to appease 'You' (in the Royal sense) are just stooges and We have enough of them.
                      Its but lazy and fairly offensive to be honest and could do with an apology. I believe Corbyn is right to oppose the policies of the State of Israel with respect to settlements and with respect to the treatment of its Arab minority. I don't believe that makes me or him an anti-semite. However there are people on the left who share those views and are very clearly anti-semitic. There is a long tradition of far left groups and individuals perpetuating the Nazi myths of the secretive exploitative Jewish elite cabal running the world via banks, its lunacy of the highest order and very dangerous but it is a widely held view amoung many socialist workers party Trotskite types who need a bogey man to stir up ill feeling just as much as the Brexit Party or BNP do.

                      Corbyn as an MP has shared a platform with these types in the past. He needs to apologize for that and distance himself completely from it. His answers so far have been restricted to saying "I am not anti-semitic and the Labour movement is anti-racism of all kinds". When the facts are that the leader of the Labour party has shared a platform with known anti-semites then it is not credible for him to simply say the Labour movement is anti-racism. There are very bad apples in the barrel and as leader he has a responsibility for weeding them out. The approach taken to date does not give anybody comfort that he takes this responsibility seriously. He needs to acknowledge that he made a mistake, one which has greater consequence in his current position than it had in his previous position.

                      Comment


                        Meanwhile look at ‘Shagger God’ Boris eating a scone...

                        https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...idApp_WhatsApp
                        "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                        Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                        Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                        Comment


                          Despite all the attempts to speak about something else (NHS, education, transports for exemple), this election is clearly and definitely turning to a fight betwwen brexiters and remainers: Jon Major just urged to think twice before voting for Tories when former Labour MP Gisela Stuart who claimed she still belongs to Labour from yesterday and not from today urged voters to back Johnson's clique... Add to this the calls for tactical votes on both sides, but most of all on the remainers' side, beyond all the differences between SNP, Labour, LibDems, Greens, Plaid Cymru, add to this the last report mentioned by Jeremy Corbyn that shows how BJ is about to betray NI, I am curious to see how the british political world will recover from this crazy crisis...
                          The Scots (originally Irish, but by now Scotch) were at this time inhabiting Ireland, having driven the Irish (Picts) out of Scotland; while the Picts (originally Scots) were now Irish (living in brackets) and vice versa. It is essential to keep these distinctions clearly in mind (and verce visa).

                          Comment


                            Frankie Boyle's thoughts ...

                            https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ext-parliament

                            As the body politic convulses, as the abyss avoids our gaze, we near the end of another election at the behest of a political class that has paid as much attention to David Cameron’s fixed terms as he did to people with emphysema slowly dying over a wood lathe. Christmas seems a strange time for a Tory government to call an election; possibly they guessed that it would be hard for Labour to sell hope in winter; possibly they judged that goodwill to all men would be at its lowest after people had endured a December of accidentally answering the door to a canvasser because they thought it was an Amazon package. Then again, Conservatives would say that the story of Christmas chimes with their values, as it involves a pregnant refugee being treated quite badly. /info/2019/nov/12/sign-up-for-andrew-sparrows-election-briefing
                            Brexit supporters are surely among the most likely to get out and vote, especially now Jeremy Kyle isn’t on in the daytime any more. It was impossible to predict that the whole country would be thrown into crisis by middle-aged men outraged about Europe making decisions for them (these are people whose wives buy their socks), but I can understand their subsequent disillusionment. If 434 MPs vote for a general election, we instantly get one; if 0.14% of the populace vote for Boris Johnson, we instantly get him; but if 52% of the electorate vote for Brexit, they get three years of what feels like trying to **** out a pool table. Essentially, Brexit has proved impossible to deliver: turns out it’s tricky for English voters to take back control of their borders when one of them is in someone else’s country. Many people wish David Cameron had never called the referendum in the first place. It says a lot about how badly the last couple of years have gone, that there’s a guy who destroyed Libya, presided over needless austerity and ****ed a pig, and we wish that he’d just used his own judgment.


                            Let’s begin with the Tories. The cabinet is Dickensian in the purest sense: the sort of people who would need more than two ghosts to change their behaviour. After an uncertain start, Jacob Rees-Mogg has had a pretty good campaign, onboard an Arctic clipper ship, nailed into a coffin of earth from his constituency. It’s interesting that someone who thinks ordinary people lack common sense is so heavily invested in upholding the result of a referendum, but like so many lesser ironies in this election, we simply don’t have the time. When people say “The mask has slipped!” after various cabinet gaffes, there must be a moment when the minister wonders whether they have accidentally come out wearing one of the actual masks they wear to the various Eyes Wide Shut-style parties that dot their social calendar at this time of year; their fingers moving reflexively towards their face to see if they’ve worn the head of a golden ibis to talk to Phillip Schofield.

                            The Conservatives seem to have focused on the phrase “Get Brexit Done”, which has all the conviction of your dad hitting the arms of his chair and saying, “Right…” We also seem to be hearing a lot about “Unleashing Britain’s potential”, despite most of our potential being for food riots, and perhaps some kind of race war. The Conservative manifesto contains elements of both Thatcherism and Reaganism, in that it seems to have been written by someone with dementia. There was probably a discussion about whether to release a manifesto at all or simply airdrop scratchcards over key marginals.


                            Boris Johnson, who looks like something you’d keep your pyjamas in, and who no reasonable person would choose to lead them into a chorus, has a strangely hunched demeanour; perhaps from all the time he spends crammed inside married women’s wardrobes, like a randy jack-in-the-box. This confused sex yeti has been booed by nurses: people who can remove a dressing, examine a festering wound, and still look up at you with a smile. Has any party ever elected a new leader so tired and dated? With a delivery best approximated as a living checklist of stroke warnings, his bumbling posho shtick almost resembles buffering, a kind of 3G Wodehouse. He doesn’t even seem to enjoy it; throughout the campaign he’s sported a face that looks as if it’s been kneaded by a baker going through a particularly bitter divorce, and the irony that comes into his eyes every time he crowbars in a catchphrase means that he breaks the fourth wall more than Deadpool. We thought the office of prime minister was what he lived for, his consuming ambition. It’s all been a bit like hearing Tony The Tiger talk about his diabetes.

                            Johnson’s deep investment in democracy is highlighted by the fact that his government has been dominated by an unelected special adviser. Usually people with levels of mental activity as low as Johnson’s aren’t surrounded by advisers, but their weeping parents and a member of their favourite boy band. Dominic Cummings looks like he works in television (which I think might be the worst thing you can say about anyone), has the air of a startled testicle, and the name of a character in a porn parody of The Talented Mr Ripley (“The Talentless Fister Ripped Me”). Everyone who’s bored with Johnson pretending to be an idiot should look at Cummings and realise these people are far more dangerous when they pretend to be clever.

                            It’s perfectly obvious why Johnson has been able to take power: he has an instinctive grasp on Brexit as rightwing eschatology, and he’s used to getting his own way, be it in the halls of Westminster or elbowing siblings off of nanny’s nipples. It’s only when you look at the hideous Tarot formed by his cabinet that you get a true picture of the depravity into which we are sinking. Take Michael Gove, a revanchist endorsement of the science of physiognomy. In any other era Gove would be seen as a uniquely unctuous, unlikable and profoundly talentless figure. Now he’s hardly even remarkable. Gove – looking like someone took all the flesh out of a serial killer’s drains and forced it into some brogues; like Davros fell out of his Dalek; like a rushed cartoon of a horny snail – is somehow not the worst person in cabinet, or even his own marriage. Against pushback from Sajid Javid and Priti Patel, Dominic Raab is attempting to get up to 60 British children back from camps in northern Syria before they freeze to death over the winter. That Raab, the flesh suit of a sentient virus with a forehead vein like a B&B kettle-cord, is somehow the moral heart of this enterprise tells you all you need to know. In all likelihood, you’ll be praying that they prorogue the next parliament.

                            Someone else who will still be here after the Rapture is the Brexit party’s Nigel Farage. I thought one of the advantages of the Brexit vote was that he might disappear; having him back in public life is a bit like watching a suicide bomber doing a comeback tour. Of course, it would have been nice to see him actually running in the election, particularly from a pack of wild dogs. As for the Lib Dems – well, I thought we’d really miss Tim Farron, bumping around the country on a deserted coach and performing Blue Peter tasks in front of people terrified that he might start talking about gay sex. Jo Swinson has grown on me, and seems to exist as a satisfying, subtle and damning satire of humanity. Swinson’s election started out relatively positively, possibly because people hadn’t heard her speak yet. It quickly became clear that she had the gravitas of a re-education camp supply teacher, and was launching a kind of charm retreat that seemed to involve loans for renting flats and permanent austerity. Some might see misogyny in this reaction to her, but I’m fairly sure I just hate her for being from Milngavie.
                            Tis but a scratch.

                            Comment


                              Labour’s idea to run an election campaign on policy in the middle of all this is a little bit like reciting your poetry at an orgy. Jeremy Corbyn, perhaps weighing up whether he could have more influence by simply dying and haunting his successor, has benefitted from becoming slightly calmer over the course of the campaign. Aggression isn’t a good look for him, shifting Corbyn from Rabbit in Winnie the Pooh towards the territory where you’d expect his face to be captioned with “police suspect the real figure may be much higher”. Labour’s campaign initially struggled to find the right note of warmth or optimism. Normally in a general election, there’s so little mention of Scotland it’s like watching coverage of a major football tournament, but Labour seemed pointlessly determined to get across the message that they would deny a second independence referendum. The Corbyn project started out as a piece of moralising – a token candidate standing in a Labour leadership election to remind the party of its principles – and his Labour is at its weakest when these roots show: it can come across as patronising and entitled. I think Labour presents itself better during elections because it is forced to be more practical. The whole Corbyn thing, at its best, is a sort of Ealing comedy about some old bloke who gets called off his allotment to try to form a government, but it needs to promise a third act where something actually happens. Labour’s campaign also demonstrates the limits of social media compared with establishment media power. If polls at the time of writing are to be believed, owning several TV stations and newspapers still seems to be more important than the democratisation of the ability to troll celebrity Jews.

                              Before the campaign, there seemed to be a belief among Labour party members that it fared better in elections because of rules about electoral media balance, perhaps because they misconstrued the establishment complacency at the last election. Of course, Labour has been monstered in the media throughout the campaign, and largely been judged by different standards than the Conservatives. Even the gold standard of scrutiny that Johnson dodged was just being interviewed by his former boss at the Spectator.

                              Media plurality is an issue we need to address in this country: the alternative is living in a timeline where, because Corbyn has wonky glasses, in a couple of years you’ll be living in a tent city outside an Amazon warehouse trying to GoFund a tonsillectomy. The Tories calling Corbyn a communist and a threat to national security after handing nuclear power plants to the Chinese is a bit like getting a bollocking off Charles Manson for putting down slug pellets. Perhaps in a few years our troops will reflect on what a harmless enemy Corbyn actually was, as they stare up at an AI minotaur, pinning them to the floor with a stainless steel hoof and holding their extracted vascular system aloft like a Ford Focus wiring-loom.

                              You won’t be surprised to learn that I won’t be voting Tory on Thursday, for much the same reasons that I won’t be spending the day kicking children and pensioners into traffic. It’s depressing to think how many polling stations are in schools, and how many people will vote Conservative after walking past a motivational rainbow. As we saw in Stanley Johnson’s Pinocchio gaffe, there is a problem with our elites programming their traumatised children with the idea that they are born to rule. It becomes almost impossible, as a class, to hide your contempt. It’s difficult to keep lying convincingly about things you’ve convinced yourself your audience are too stupid to notice. This current iteration of Conservatism, a kind of mutant nationalism that insists all our infrastructure has to be owned by other countries, has nowhere to go but into an asset-stripped, deregulated wasteland. I don’t know how anyone votes for that, or what happens after they do. British people don’t get on well enough to form militia.

                              I don’t want to end on a note of pessimism. Instead, I’d like to share with you my two favourite quotes. The first, is a really famous one. Kurt Vonnegut asked his adult son what he thought the meaning of life was, and his son replied: “We are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is.” The second is what David Chase, the creator of The Sopranos, said about the ending of the final episode:

                              “Well, what Tony should have been thinking, I guess, and what we all should be thinking – although we can’t live that way – is that life is really short. And there are good times in it and there are bad times in it. And that we don’t know why we’re here, but we do know that 20 miles up it’s freezing cold, it’s a freezing cold universe, but here we have this thing called love, which is our only defence, really, against all that cold, and that it’s a very brief interval and that, when it’s over, I think you’re probably always blindsided by it.”

                              Twenty miles up, it’s a freezing cold universe, we only have the human connections we make here, nothing is permanent, and love is our only defence. I suggest we all vote accordingly, and try to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is.
                              Tis but a scratch.

                              Comment


                                Some good stuff in that piece but bit of a mess
                                The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad.
                                - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)

                                Comment

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