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    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
    BB this and May's administration are the worse British govts since the WW2. They have been given free reign by an opposition whose position, even to those who are relatively politically astute, was a quagmire of pivots and half baked ideas. Remember the six tests? I'd say half the Labour MPs struggled to know what the hell that was about.

    Labour has been pulled asunder by Milne and McCluskey. Just as a coherent narrative was emerging, McCluskey would go on a solo run and lurch the party back into another existential crisis.

    Labour may have done better then expected in the last election, but that was off the back of one of the most inept Tory campaigns in a few generations. Labour still lost that election.
    Lost to this cadre of weirdos, gombeen men and general oddities of humanity:

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    Its like an amateur pantomime group got to visit 10 downing st, and Labour STILL couldn't beat them.



    I am the million man.

    Comment


      Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
      BB this and May's administration are the worse British govts since the WW2. They have been given free reign by an opposition whose position, even to those who are relatively politically astute, was a quagmire of pivots and half baked ideas. Remember the six tests? I'd say half the Labour MPs struggled to know what the hell that was about.

      Labour has been pulled asunder by Milne and McCluskey. Just as a coherent narrative was emerging, McCluskey would go on a solo run and lurch the party back into another existential crisis.

      Labour may have done better then expected in the last election, but that was off the back of one of the most inept Tory campaigns in a few generations. Labour still lost that election.
      And in a normal era we'd have seen them punished. The Tories were rescued at the last election by Brexit, and the only reason they'll get elected this time is because of Brexit. I think we get into a difficult area when we judge the performance of the opposition based on Govt retention of votes, when we know at the same time that the Govts retention of votes is based on a single issue.

      I think the idea circulated by a lot of people our age that some sort of Centrist messiah would be doing better is just outlandish. I don't see how, in a country where a minimum of 40-45% of voters are Brexit supporters, the Tory vote is going to drop very far.


      And I think it's worth actually reflecting on Corbyn's performance in opposition - in the actual business of opposition. He's outlasted 2 Tory leaders and may well outlast a third. He's blocked Brexit using the party whip, despite rebellions from those clinging to their jobs in Leave constituencies. He defeated the Tories on welfare reform, they became the only Govt in post war history (afaik) to lose their own finance bill. They didn't even dare to bring a Queen's Speech for fear of losing that too.

      So much of the "Labour are a terrible opposition" stuff is just noise. Their manifesto policies consistently poll majority support. They got as high a vote share as Blair's last two wins. They've prevented the Tories from passing Brexit.


      I don't think Corbyn is a great Labour leader. I think he's a good man and I support many of his policies, but I don't think he's hugely electable in modern political era. But I really can't agree with the idea that the opposition has been exceptionally bad, or that some other never identified figure would somehow have peeled away a quarter of the Brexit voting support that has coalesced behind the Tories in favour of a remain platform.

      The Tories are surviving because they are the channel for the Brexit vote, and there's nothing that any Labour leader could have done about it.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

        And in a normal era we'd have seen them punished. The Tories were rescued at the last election by Brexit, and the only reason they'll get elected this time is because of Brexit. I think we get into a difficult area when we judge the performance of the opposition based on Govt retention of votes, when we know at the same time that the Govts retention of votes is based on a single issue.

        I think the idea circulated by a lot of people our age that some sort of Centrist messiah would be doing better is just outlandish. I don't see how, in a country where a minimum of 40-45% of voters are Brexit supporters, the Tory vote is going to drop very far.


        And I think it's worth actually reflecting on Corbyn's performance in opposition - in the actual business of opposition. He's outlasted 2 Tory leaders and may well outlast a third. He's blocked Brexit using the party whip, despite rebellions from those clinging to their jobs in Leave constituencies. He defeated the Tories on welfare reform, they became the only Govt in post war history (afaik) to lose their own finance bill. They didn't even dare to bring a Queen's Speech for fear of losing that too.

        So much of the "Labour are a terrible opposition" stuff is just noise. Their manifesto policies consistently poll majority support. They got as high a vote share as Blair's last two wins. They've prevented the Tories from passing Brexit.


        I don't think Corbyn is a great Labour leader. I think he's a good man and I support many of his policies, but I don't think he's hugely electable in modern political era. But I really can't agree with the idea that the opposition has been exceptionally bad, or that some other never identified figure would somehow have peeled away a quarter of the Brexit voting support that has coalesced behind the Tories in favour of a remain platform.

        The Tories are surviving because they are the channel for the Brexit vote, and there's nothing that any Labour leader could have done about it.
        Sums it up for me.

        You also have to consider that Corbyn is up against the concerted efforts of the vast majority of British press outlets who deeply oppose him and his policies. By the looks of things you have about 90% of people over 50 in the UK believing that the Labour Party is a collection of virulent anti-semites being lead by a man carrying dual membership of the IRA and Hamas. The largest party in the country is run through with racists and bigots but the press is largely controlled by people who want them in power, so this is ignored.

        Then you have a once decent public service broadcaster leaving a personal friend and cheerleader for the Prime Minister in her post as political editor, leading to things like footage of Johnson ****ing up his wreath placement at the Cenotaph being replaced by footage from a few years ago when, for once, he managed to not **** something up.
        "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

        Comment


          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

          And in a normal era we'd have seen them punished. The Tories were rescued at the last election by Brexit, and the only reason they'll get elected this time is because of Brexit. I think we get into a difficult area when we judge the performance of the opposition based on Govt retention of votes, when we know at the same time that the Govts retention of votes is based on a single issue.

          I think the idea circulated by a lot of people our age that some sort of Centrist messiah would be doing better is just outlandish. I don't see how, in a country where a minimum of 40-45% of voters are Brexit supporters, the Tory vote is going to drop very far.


          And I think it's worth actually reflecting on Corbyn's performance in opposition - in the actual business of opposition. He's outlasted 2 Tory leaders and may well outlast a third. He's blocked Brexit using the party whip, despite rebellions from those clinging to their jobs in Leave constituencies. He defeated the Tories on welfare reform, they became the only Govt in post war history (afaik) to lose their own finance bill. They didn't even dare to bring a Queen's Speech for fear of losing that too.

          So much of the "Labour are a terrible opposition" stuff is just noise. Their manifesto policies consistently poll majority support. They got as high a vote share as Blair's last two wins. They've prevented the Tories from passing Brexit.


          I don't think Corbyn is a great Labour leader. I think he's a good man and I support many of his policies, but I don't think he's hugely electable in modern political era. But I really can't agree with the idea that the opposition has been exceptionally bad, or that some other never identified figure would somehow have peeled away a quarter of the Brexit voting support that has coalesced behind the Tories in favour of a remain platform.

          The Tories are surviving because they are the channel for the Brexit vote, and there's nothing that any Labour leader could have done about it.
          I agree about the core vote supporting the Tories.

          However, I think it's a stretch to say that Corbyn delivered all the above. He had multiple Tories vote with him for key votes e.g Finance bill. The Tories themselves saw off two PMs, not Corbyn. No matter how well he polled in the last election, he still lost.

          I too think hes a good man. I think the appalling, orchestrated attacks on him are an affront to democracy. I do. however, think that he has surrounded himself with some of the most divisive people in British politics. As someone who is broadly pro unions, I absolutely despise McClouskey, and he seems to have Corbyns ear. That, I think, has been their downfall.
          Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

          Comment


            Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post

            I agree about the core vote supporting the Tories.

            However, I think it's a stretch to say that Corbyn delivered all the above. He had multiple Tories vote with him for key votes e.g Finance bill. The Tories themselves saw off two PMs, not Corbyn. No matter how well he polled in the last election, he still lost.

            I too think hes a good man. I think the appalling, orchestrated attacks on him are an affront to democracy. I do. however, think that he has surrounded himself with some of the most divisive people in British politics. As someone who is broadly pro unions, I absolutely despise McClouskey, and he seems to have Corbyns ear. That, I think, has been their downfall.
            He could definitely have had better people around him. Of the Left in the party I'd have been infinitely happier to see John McDonnell having a stronger hand in things.

            On the Tory votes yes, that's true. He's needed Tory rebels.

            But it's easy to forget that when Harriet Harman was acting leader, Labour abstained on the Tory welfare reform bill because it was so afraid of being seen not to be fully signed up to the austerity narrative.

            Corbyn is under-credited, I think, on that front. His leadership of the party is based on the fact that he made a stand on austerity and won the argument when everyone else was running scared.

            So while he needed Tory rebels on some of these defeats, I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that his standing firm on things like the national insurance rise created situations in which rebellions mattered.

            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              Not sure if you guys have seen TLDR stuff before (generally quite informative and unbiased in my opinion). This piece on how no deal may still be quite likely is worth a watch
              https://youtu.be/aUCTVttlMoY
              The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad.
              - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)

              Comment




                Seems that Aaron Banks' twitter account has been hacked. Could be some interesting messages about to be leaked it seems. Unless someone is leading Carole Cadwalladr a dance, which isn't impossible.
                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  Ex cambridge analytica and ex vote leave employee thomas borwick is targeting voters with pro green party advertising.
                  Probably in an attempt to split the remain vote. He previously got his hands on the entire uk electoral register.
                  He previously was involved in US elections. Nasty stuff.
                  But yea we're told the russians are the problem..

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Major TNT View Post
                    Ex cambridge analytica and ex vote leave employee thomas borwick is targeting voters with pro green party advertising.
                    Probably in an attempt to split the remain vote. He previously got his hands on the entire uk electoral register.
                    He previously was involved in US elections. Nasty stuff.
                    But yea we're told the russians are the problem..


                    I think the shift is from the old school KGB style intelligence op to an international network of money and influence that enmeshes Putin with Bannon, Farage, Banks, Cambridge Analytica etc etc. It's an internationalised neo-fascism that sits very comfortably with the politics of the Mercers and the Kochs. And it's pretty scary.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      If you want scary then check this out, the bbc edited a clip of boris johnston. The audience laughed at his answer to a question about trust.
                      When that clip was aired and distributed on the bbc the laughter had been replaced by.......clapping.
                      There are countless examples of similiar.
                      Welcome to the propaganda arm of the british tories folks - the bbc, they're aiding and abetting the tories steal an election.

                      https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...scandal/24/11/

                      The BBC has been caught up in yet another editing scandal after the 1pm news reportedly altered reactions of the Question Time audience.

                      Boris Johnson drew a hysteric reaction from the audience after fielding questions on how important it is for people in positions of power to tell the truth.

                      The Prime Minister said trust is “absolutely vital” to the election, claims that didn’t wash with those at the event.

                      But when the clip aired on BBC the following day it appeared as if the PM had received a warm reaction for his comments.

                      Comment


                        The UK papers are covered in the fallout from Corbyn's interview with Andrew Neil last night. This antisemitism thing is largely a product of the UK press and various high-profile Israel supporters, but he really doesn't help himself sometimes.

                        Swallow your pride, apologise and move on. The Daily Mail could then go back to calling you a communist rather than having to pretend they think antisemitism is bad.
                        "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                          The UK papers are covered in the fallout from Corbyn's interview with Andrew Neil last night. This antisemitism thing is largely a product of the UK press and various high-profile Israel supporters, but he really doesn't help himself sometimes.

                          Swallow your pride, apologise and move on. The Daily Mail could then go back to calling you a communist rather than having to pretend they think antisemitism is bad.

                          The media and the chatterati in general or convinced that it's disastrous, but I'm not convinced. The actual racism of the Tory party doesn't seem to have had any impact at all.

                          Rightly or wrongly, I don't think that many people in the general public believe that Corbyn is an anti-semite, or possibly even care that much. At least in the sense of it being a decisive issue.

                          It seems a very Westminster bubble argument to me. Labour has no anti-semitic policies. It has no anti-semitic rhetoric or campaign materials. It has no policies that would have any particular specific impact on the Jewish population. The argument comes down to a) has he unintentionally or intentionally echoed anti-semitic tropes, b) has he been on the same platform as people who are anti-semitic and c) has he dealt with people in the Labour Party who have been anti-semitic (which isn't his job).

                          Given that Boris Johnson refereed to gay people as "tank topped bum boys" and black people as "grinning picanninies", the coverage does seem to be out of kilter a little.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                            The UK papers are covered in the fallout from Corbyn's interview with Andrew Neil last night. This antisemitism thing is largely a product of the UK press and various high-profile Israel supporters, but he really doesn't help himself sometimes.

                            Swallow your pride, apologise and move on. The Daily Mail could then go back to calling you a communist rather than having to pretend they think antisemitism is bad.

                            I'm not sure I agree with the "move on" bit. Not long ago it was "implement IHRA in full and move on", they did and weren't allowed to. Then it was "demonstrate that they're taking the most stringent actions of any party and be allowed to move on". They did, and they weren't.

                            Personally, I think Labour could have done better on Anti-Semitism and that Corbyn should have overstepped his brief as leader to set the tone if needed. But they still wouldn't be allowed to move on, and if he'd apologised last night it would have been "too little too late as Corbyn finally admits his anti-semitism this morning".

                            Andrew Neil doesn't give two ****s about minorities, and neither does Gove or any of the others. It's a wedge issue and they'll keep at it.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                              I'm not sure I agree with the "move on" bit. Not long ago it was "implement IHRA in full and move on", they did and weren't allowed to. Then it was "demonstrate that they're taking the most stringent actions of any party and be allowed to move on". They did, and they weren't.

                              Personally, I think Labour could have done better on Anti-Semitism and that Corbyn should have overstepped his brief as leader to set the tone if needed. But they still wouldn't be allowed to move on, and if he'd apologised last night it would have been "too little too late as Corbyn finally admits his anti-semitism this morning".

                              Andrew Neil doesn't give two ****s about minorities, and neither does Gove or any of the others. It's a wedge issue and they'll keep at it.
                              Not "move on" in the sense of this will now fall away as an issue, "move on" in the sense that this won't be the major story tomorrow. He has apologised before, just reiterate that apology and these awful ****ing hacks won't have something to so easily jump on.

                              No question that the vast majority of people pushing this line don't give a **** about minorities. In fact many of them would sit comfortably within a political and social movement that, given the opportunity, has been happy to get a good pogrom going in the past. If this was really about minority rights then the rampant Islamophobia within the Tory party would be a much bigger story.

                              I hope Labour have their ducks in a row about this NHS sell-off story this morning. It's a big play.
                              "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Jenta View Post

                                Not "move on" in the sense of this will now fall away as an issue, "move on" in the sense that this won't be the major story tomorrow. He has apologised before, just reiterate that apology and these awful ****ing hacks won't have something to so easily jump on.

                                No question that the vast majority of people pushing this line don't give a **** about minorities. In fact many of them would sit comfortably within a political and social movement that, given the opportunity, has been happy to get a good pogrom going in the past. If this was really about minority rights then the rampant Islamophobia within the Tory party would be a much bigger story.

                                I hope Labour have their ducks in a row about this NHS sell-off story this morning. It's a big play.

                                My worry on the NHS story is that they are playing fast and loose with notions of "for sale". I'm not sure they're even talking about service privatisation any more, but on opening up procurement for drugs. It works as a surface level play, but it seems increasingly that that's all that counts.

                                Interestingly in some polling the NHS is now ahead of Brexit as people's greatest concern for the election, which could play to Labour.

                                Re; the AS apology, I really believe that if he'd apologised, they'd have still run a big story this morning on the basis of him accepting responsibility etc. "Corbyn now admits that Labour has failed to deal with Anti-Semitism. Regardless of their regret, how can we place a self-admitted anti-semitic party into power"?


                                "Will you apologise for Anti Semitism" is up there with "Can you confirm that you've stopped beating your wife" as a no win question.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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