Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

[AwayFromHome]

The Met Police have been advising all MPs to take cabs to and from Parliament.

JRM chose to go walkabout, with his young son, on the day that both a hugely important vote was being held, right onto the streets where over a million Pro remain marchers were. JRM also chose not to use his ministerial car.

He also managed, at short shift, to get a dozen or so police officers to walk him out. Officers who, for the above mentioned reasons, might have been a tad busy that day.

Not great by the marchers, but JRM absolutely should not have put himself, his son or those officers in that predicament.

Jess Phillips said that in her case it was the police who insisted on escorting her, not her request. I have no idea if this is the same with JRM. He may well have been bringing his son on a shortish walk from elocution or slave-trading lessons (or whatever extra-curriculars these types do) back to his office. Everybody should have a right to do that. Christ even Frankie Boyle (well known toff lover and polite/diplomatic guy attuned not not causing offence) was defending Ress-Mogg on twitter.

What is wrong is wrong and no amount of whataboutary will make it right.

Balla: (I still can't figure out the multiquote on the new site) do you think that somehow this form of protest achieved its goals?Like fup it did - it puts off potential supporters and makes the evil ones look reasonable. Same problem with XR blocking trains; nobody who might support them had a problem with disrupting Parliament or spraying the bank of England or blocking Shell offices or even minor rolling blocks on the bridges at rush hour. Blocking trains was just completely stupid and makes a few radicals get a hard on for their wokeness while undermining the whole message.

[AwayFromHome]

So gaming this now.

- This will be rejected by Parliament
- Benn Act kicks in
- Boris Forced by Parliament to ask for an extension
- EU says 1 month extension but no renegotiation and only for an election - EU can do this as new Commission delayed for a month.
- Boris then gets his fixed term majority (will Corbyn bite at this?) to go to the country based on his deal or no deal.
- Corbyn runs on a confirmatory vote and further extension
- Tories come back with a majority and a mandate for their deal/no deal - get Brexit done
- deal passed by Parliament
- UK leave at 11pm on 30 November

The EU won't go short. Nobody wants to deal with this again this side of Christmas. EU will say no, accept January or very possibly offer 14 months.

[mr chips]

What is wrong is wrong and no amount of whataboutary will make it right.
.

Do you really think it's wrong to shout "Shame on you" at Jacob Rees-Mogg simply because he made the decision to bring his son into close proximity with a planned mass protest against what he is doing? Is that really your take-away from this?

[AwayFromHome]

Do you really think it's wrong to shout "Shame on you" at Jacob Rees-Mogg simply because he made the decision to bring his son into close proximity with a planned mass protest against what he is doing? Is that really your take-away from this?

Pedant alert- I assume you meant to say "Do you really think it's wrong to shout "Shame on you" at Jacob Rees-Mogg when he has his son with him and knew full well that there was a protest in the area" (i.e. they weren't shouting shame on you BECAUSE he brought his son)

Yes I do. I think it is wrong to harass someone who is walking peaceably on the street. When I was younger I've had situations with friends who harassed women or foreigners on the street when they had a few too many pints taken. I never had a problem, no matter how much I had drunk myself, in grabbing the bollix's by the back of the neck and making them apologize and if I was on the streets of Westminister last Saturday I would do the same.

What's wrong is wrong and it doesn't matter who it is done to.

I don't condone the death penalty for pedophiles for the exact same reason; whats wrong is wrong.

Your takeaway is basically victim shaming - "why did he bring his son", "why did he walk", "why did she wear a short skirt", "why did she agree to walk alone with him" - it all sounds the same to me. On principle I think that is wrong no matter who the victim is.

As I also despise JRM and everything he represents I am also angry that the protesters behavior allows him to be seen as a "victim" because I would agree with Balla, fitzy and yourself that in general in life he is not a victim - he is a nasty piece of work who makes life much harder for many and doesn't give a sh!t about it.

[mr chips]

I completely reject your victim shaming accusation, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one as you've pointed out that I phrased my question poorly. What I meant was that it seemed to me from your earlier post, "Even JRM is entitled to walk to work with his family without being abused by a mob", that you objected to people shouting at him on the grounds that he had his son with him, and I was making the point that no it wasn't great, but that it was Rees-Mogg who put his son in that environment in the first place.

I now understand that you think people shouldn't have shouted at him at all. I completely disagree with you on that. This was a public protest, and at public protests people make noise, shout slogans, wave banners etc. It is in no way comparable to a bunch of drunken louts randomly harassing women on the street, and to put it mildly it's disappointing that you would seek to equate the two scenarios. Those people were there specifically because of the malign actions of politicians including Rees-Mogg, and he chose to walk right past them.

As you point out, I've been living in the north a long time, and I know coat-trailing when I see it.

[mr chips]

Anyway - we're highly unlikely to agree on this so I'm going to move on. Bercow has refused to allow the government to hold a second vote on the deal, on the grounds that it's been voted on already and nothing significant has changed. The next big questions appear to be whether or not amendments to bring the UK into the EU customs union and to pass the deal subject to a second referendum will be approved.

[JN.Allezdax.com]

Bercow for President!!!
Ah non... Not possible, Strange country with a strange democratic model...
If Mister Speaker wants to ask for the french nationality, would be immediately accepted. We need some politics with convictions here. They are too rare actually.

[Daithi]

....We need some politics with convictions here. They are too rare actually.

We've got loads of politicians with convictions in Ireland JNA, you're welcome to all of them!!

around Tipperary, Kerry , Wexford & the border areas (& lets not mention ni) they practically insist on convicted law breakers as their democratically elected representatives..... don't ask me!?

[fitzy73]

I completely reject your victim shaming accusation, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one as you've pointed out that I phrased my question poorly. What I meant was that it seemed to me from your earlier post, "Even JRM is entitled to walk to work with his family without being abused by a mob", that you objected to people shouting at him on the grounds that he had his son with him, and I was making the point that no it wasn't great, but that it was Rees-Mogg who put his son in that environment in the first place.

I now understand that you think people shouldn't have shouted at him at all. I completely disagree with you on that. This was a public protest, and at public protests people make noise, shout slogans, wave banners etc. It is in no way comparable to a bunch of drunken louts randomly harassing women on the street, and to put it mildly it's disappointing that you would seek to equate the two scenarios. Those people were there specifically because of the malign actions of politicians including Rees-Mogg, and he chose to walk right past them.

As you point out, I've been living in the north a long time, and I know coat-trailing when I see it.

Exactly. He knew damn well what he was doing; his walkabout was against police advice as well (so I've been told). He knowingly and willfully put his son, and those officers in a dangerous situation.

Funnily enough JRM is now calling for the re- introduction of sessional orders....

Anyway, another fun day tomorrow. I fully expect many more Labour MPs to vote with Johnson.

Next few days will tell a lot.

[fitzy73]

Govt timetable defeated, so no one seems to know what is going on.

19 Labour MPs votes the bill through second reading though. If BoJo can get an extension of a month or so, I reckon he's home and hosed.

Those 19 Labour MPs are ****ing shameless.

[tippete7trees]

An election is probably more likely. There's a serious danger for Boris that amendments will cripple the deal as coined so he'll gamble on getting a working majority in an election.

[fitzy73]

I keep reading this, but I'm.nkt sure why Labour would agree to support an election right now (polling is terrible).

From a strategic prospective they might be better holding Johnsons feet in the fire for a few months longer.

I note that Johnson, Corbyn, Milne and Cummings met today. Oh to be a fly on that wall ...

[Jenta]

The EU can't agree on the length of the extension to be granted because of the uncertainty around whether an election is going to be held. Looks like the Tories have gone on strike until they get their election too, which is somewhat ironic.

Who blinks first.

[AwayFromHome]

Govt timetable defeated, so no one seems to know what is going on.

19 Labour MPs votes the bill through second reading though. If BoJo can get an extension of a month or so, I reckon he's home and hosed.

Those 19 Labour MPs are ****ing shameless.

Very hard at a constituency level for a BoJo backing Tory to claim that these 19 "blocked Brexit" so it was probably a smart move for them as individuals looking to defend narrow majorities. At the same time the majority of the 19 can also claim that they intended to back amendments in committee stage asking for one or both of a customs union and second referendum on the deal - obviously a handful like Flint have taken the ludicrous "let's just get it done" approach that will play well in the streets but makes no actual sense.

[B.A.]

Just back from a Rich Hall gig in Galway where he described JRM as a haunted pencil and Gove as an owl trapped in a centrifuge.... Magnificent!