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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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    PP's perspective seems a dog's dinner of conspiracy theory laden delusions and bloke down the pub politics.
    Corbyn has shifted his EU position a lot going from outright opposition to endorsement but reforming from within.
    This is inevitable to some extent with liberal democracy, you have to get elected, but reading between the lines his core concern is social justice which is infinitely preferable to the failed nonsense of tax cuts for the rich and an unfettered free market. He's realistic in general, he's no Chavez eg, and might well steer the UK back to stability.

    Doris is tactically cute enough but ultimately thick. Bannonesque ideology, while periodically seductive to the right has inevitably ended in disaster. It's premises rely on a number of hoary delusions but I doubt Doris will get far down that road. The Tories will be hammered in the election especially if the opposition get their tactical voting ducks in a row. The next government will be a coalition of Lab LibDems and a new referendum will cancel Brexit. Doris will be ousted as Tory leader unless his Tory party is so small it endures as a rest home for ERGista Quixotes shaking their fist at Brussels, the sky and reality. Manchester United will be relegated and Solskjaer deported to Nth Korea along with Woodward.
    Last edited by tippete7trees; 4th-October-2019, 03:46.


      Look, I am a total cretin when it comes to this, but can someone explain to me, under Bojos Brexit plan, Northern Ireland would remain in the European single market for goods but leave the customs union.... How is that possible?
      He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.


        The mirror image of the UK proposals, i.e. where there had to be parallel consent before taking NI out of the single market and customs union would be acceptable. Seems unlikely we'll get to that point though.


          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

          Because that is the only means of creating a coalition to stop a No Deal, but I will believe it when I see it. Corbyn won’t agree to anyone but him as leader, safe in the knowledge the MPs won’t vote for it and he will get the No Deal he wants.
          A key quote from the below - “When the house is on fire, you don’t care too much if the water you put it out with is dirty.”

          For those who want to stop no deal, Jeremy Corbyn is the only hope

          Departing Tory leaders have developed an odd and presumptuous habit of demanding that the leader of the opposition resign too. “As a party leader who has accepted when her time was up,” Theresa May told Jeremy Corbyn in her final prime minister’s questions, preparing to leave her party to Boris Johnson and the country without a prayer, “perhaps the time has come for him to do the same.”

          In 2016, David Cameron – who had called a referendum lost it, only to then break his promise and abandon the country in a moment of self-inflicted crisis – suggested Corbyn’s resignation would be a patriotic act. “It might be in my party’s interest for him to sit there. It’s not in the national interest. I would say, for heaven’s sake, man, go.”

          Stranger still, many Labour parliamentarians agreed with them: Cameron’s speech took place in the middle of a full-blown, if woefully inept, coup.

          When the 2017 exit polls on election night suggested that Labour had far exceeded expectations, increasing its vote share and seats while the Tories lost their majority, a BBC documentary showed the muted response of several Labour MPs. They were shocked not into jubilation, but silence; they had looked forward to his defeat, removal and “party renewal” even if it meant they had to go down with him. The former leader Tony Blair, meanwhile, put his head in his hands and said he didn’t understand this country any more.

          The political and media establishments are still struggling with the choice the Labour party made in 2015. The fact that the decision was emphatic, had to be made twice following the failed coup, and was effectively endorsed by the electorate in 2017, has not been enough. On some level, that goes beyond the political to the psychological: they refuse to accept his tenure as legitimate.

          This sense of denial runs deep – as though insisting he should not be the party leader in effect means he’s not. It is a delusion that recalls the author Doris Lessing’s observation of Blair’s declarative approach to politics: “He believes in magic. That if you say a thing it is true.”

          Corbyn is the leader of the Labour party. He has a mandate. He represents something other than just himself. That is not a statement of opinion but of fact. One does not have to like it to accept it. But the failure to accept it will have material and strategic consequences. And, with a general election imminent and the future of the country’s relationship with Europe finely balanced, the moment of reckoning with that fact is long overdue. For there is no route to a second referendum without Labour; there is no means of defeating Johnson without Labour. The party remains the largest, and by far the most effective, electoral obstacle to most of the immediate crises that progressives wish to prevent. Once again that is not a case for Corbyn or for Labour, but for reality.

          Earlier this week, when asked which was worse, a no-deal Brexit or Corbyn as prime minister, the Liberal Democrats’ Scotland spokesman, Jamie Stone, said: “It may be that somebody else may emerge from the Labour party. I think the ball is very much in the Labour party’s court to see what alternatives they could find.”

          That is not going to happen. Liberal Democrats don’t get to choose the Labour leader. Labour does. The Lib Dems have long struggled to understand this. In 2010 Nick Clegg said he could work with Labour, just not Gordon Brown. Two years later they said they could work with Labour but the shadow chancellor Ed Balls must go.

          The insistence that Labour couldn’t get the numbers in parliament to oust Johnson and make Corbyn a caretaker prime minister is a self-fulfilling prophecy made most ardently by those who won’t give him the numbers. But even if it wasn’t, it is a fallacy to assume that anyone else would get any closer. When pressed on which he would prefer – “Is it Jeremy Corbyn or is it no deal?” – Stone eventually showed his cards. “It is no deal every time.”

          There is candour in this. It is effectively the position of his party and many others, including a few disgruntled Labour members, for whom a potential Labour government under Corbyn is somehow worse than the actual no-deal Brexit under Johnson that may soon happen. But there is a clear contradiction too. Some of those who have devoted the past few years to stopping any kind of Brexit now claim that the only thing worse than a no-deal Brexit – the worst kind of Brexit they could possibly imagine – is the leader of the only party that can stop a no-deal Brexit.

          None of this is a reason to necessarily support Labour or Corbyn. There are all sorts of reasons, from antisemitism to an insufficiently pro-European stance, as to why progressives might decide not to back Labour at this moment; and the calculations are very different outside England and in those areas where tactical voting offers the best hope of getting rid of Conservatives. And given the redistributive agenda that Labour laid out at last week’s conference, there are all sorts of reasons why progressives might back it, too.

          Political parties are not entitled to anyone’s support. They must earn it. The moment they start blaming voters for not supporting them, they are sunk. That’s as true for Labour under Corbyn as it was for the US Democrats under nominee Al Gore. But that does not absolve the voter from the strategic and moral responsibility of accounting for their vote.

          In the second round of the French presidential elections in 2002, which pitted the conservative Jacques Chirac against the far-right candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen, a Communist party local councillor, François Giacalone, voted for the conservative. “When the house is on fire,” he said, “you don’t care too much if the water you put it out with is dirty.”

          Right now, the house is on fire. Johnson’s first couple of months in office have illustrated that what’s at stake is not a contest between bad and worse. This is a leader who uses the police as props; breaks the law to undermine democracy; and stokes division with rhetoric that can and has been easily co-opted by the far right, pitting a section of the population against parliament and the judiciary. Johnson’s cabinet and its agenda, both with regards to Brexit and beyond, do not represent a mere shift to the right but a paradigmatic sea-change in British politics that, where Europe is concerned, may have irreversible consequences.

          Those who last year were literally on the fringe of the Tory party conference have this week been running the show. The coming election will not just be about opposing Brexit – it’ll be about defending democratic norms. The key consequence of understanding that Corbyn is the legitimate leader of the Labour party is understanding that this fire cannot be extinguished without him.
          Tis but a scratch.


            Mouahahahaha! He was ready to die in a ditch rather than looking for an extension...


            And at the moment, UK and EU are far from it...

            An advice: If you ask him for help to find truffles, don't put the wine on the table, the omelette is not about to be cooked...
            The Scots (originally Irish, but by now Scotch) were at this time inhabiting Ireland, having driven the Irish (Picts) out of Scotland; while the Picts (originally Scots) were now Irish (living in brackets) and vice versa. It is essential to keep these distinctions clearly in mind (and verce visa).


              Maybe not the omelette, but what about his goose?
              Tis but a scratch.


                Originally posted by i_like_cake View Post
                Look, I am a total cretin when it comes to this, but can someone explain to me, under Bojos Brexit plan, Northern Ireland would remain in the European single market for goods but leave the customs union.... How is that possible?

                He wants a DMZ around the border. some checks on either side of the border but no checks on the actual border itself.

                this article might help.



                  Am I missing something here but surely Doris is in big trouble now over this Arcuri lady. When asked last night (by Piers Morgan?) if she'd had an affair with Doris, she refused to answer. Seeing as he took her on some trade missions and seemingly through him she got massive grants for her company which it wasn't entitled to and due diligence was bypassed. This must be an indictable and resigning issue. No?


                    Originally posted by tippete7trees View Post
                    Am I missing something here but surely Doris is in big trouble now over this Arcuri lady. When asked last night (by Piers Morgan?) if she'd had an affair with Doris, she refused to answer. Seeing as he took her on some trade missions and seemingly through him she got massive grants for her company which it wasn't entitled to and due diligence was bypassed. This must be an indictable and resigning issue. No?
                    Sex Wonka is nearly as teflon as Orange Donny
                    I am the million man.


                      Power is an aphrodisiac for women. If lardball Doris was a Benny Hill lookalike traffic warden eg, the likes of Arcuri would try to run over his feet.


                        He's been summoned by the London Assembly to turn up in front of their oversight committee within a week in order to provide information about his relationship with Arcuri, and they can compel him to provide all communications he had with her - texts as well as emails, including any that he might claim are private/personal. It's not something he can ignore - if he doesn't obey the summons and comply with their instructions, he can be imprisoned for up to three months and also, more interestingly, hit with an unlimited fine. That oversight committee is due to have a meeting about all this on Wednesday of this week, so this could develop quite quickly.

                        It's funny how the British gutter press came up with the nickname "Paddy Pantsdown" for Ashdown after he'd had an affair, but of course aren't creating a similar narrative for their boy such as Boris the Liar, Philandering Boris etc. Actually, there was a character in the third Men In Black movie called Boris the Animal - I'm sure someone could do something with that ...
                        Tis but a scratch.


                          Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                          It's funny how the British gutter press came up with the nickname "Paddy Pantsdown" for Ashdown after he'd had an affair, but of course aren't creating a similar narrative for their boy such as Boris the Liar, Philandering Boris etc. Actually, there was a character in the third Men In Black movie called Boris the Animal - I'm sure someone could do something with that ...
                          Raising hopes and denying gropes: Tory conference leaves no fantasy untouched

                          Conservative conference 2019
                          From Mark Francois as a weekend warrior to Boris Johnson as a paragon of sexual virtue and Dominic Cummings as an athleisure pinup, seeing was not quite believing

                          Marina Hyde
                          Wed 2 Oct 2019 15.53 BSTLast modified on Wed 2 Oct 2019 21.38 BST

                          Johnson watches chancellor Sajid Javid deliver his speech.

                          For the Conservative party’s Manchester conference, the slogan was “Get Brexit done”. Yet again, Boris Johnson swears blind he’s going to withdraw on schedule. A promise an unspecified number of single mothers have heard before.

                          Unfortunately, this conference contained adult themes from the outset. Welcome to the errordome, where by day three it had been established that a table seating plan constitutes sexual consent; where the 1922 Committee treasurer had been sent home for an altercation with security staff right before the home secretary’s speech on law and order; and where Dominic Cummings was still apparating in unexpected places wearing the same grey tracksuit. He’s not so much an eminence grise as a tracksuit grise. Cummings now edits at least three of this country’s newspapers, and had to leave the conference bar to escape all the young Tory dudes who wanted selfies with him. You’ve heard of crisis-of-masculinity podcasts? You live in one. Instead of “Get Brexit done”, the Tories should really have co-opted the deathless title of that Succession episode **** Show at the **** Factory. Those words would have been a way more appropriate backdrop to the spectacle of various cabinet ministers squirming over whether the PM groping the upper inner thigh of a woman would be one of their personal red lines. Pressed on the Charlotte Edwardes claims, Matt Hancock blathered that he did have red lines that would force his cabinet resignation, but he wasn’t going to say them out loud. Oh, Matt. Is one of them “blowing a customs official to secure the release of the Fyre festival’s Evian water”? Because, you know … convince me you wouldn’t. Hancock went on to imply that unwanted touching of women was OK because Johnson has “never lectured other people on their private lives”. Yup, **** show at the **** factory.

                          Still, here he comes, Sex Wonka, raising hopes and denying gropes. Boris Johnson’s most amusing viral moment from Manchester featured one aide passing him a cup, only for another aide to snatch it back with the hissed words: “No. Disposable. Cups.” I suppose it’s very remotely possible this is something to do with “the environment”, though the cup didn’t even get a single use. But surely the more likely theory is that the prime minister never uses a hairbrush or drinks out of disposable cups because he daren’t risk a DNA test. Tracksuit grise … Dominic Cummings.

                          One of the No 10 aides in question was Rob Oxley, a chap whose other eyecatching move at the conference was to enter the press room on Sunday evening with an imperious: “One from each, one from each.” Once one reporter from each paper had been martialled, Oxley told them the Edwardes allegations were untrue. No questions permitted. Had he been under the dinner table in question at the time? Inquiring minds want to know.

                          Britain is now basically governed by a Jeremy Kyle villain who knows the ancient Greek for humbug. Boris Johnson’s own foreword to the conference programme declared that he felt, in Manchester, “the same throb of possibility every time I visit”. As you’d expect from someone whose personal philosophy is “no throb unyielded to”. Beyond the security cordon in the real country – all those wonderful people out there in the dark – Johnson’s latest polling puts him on a minus 18 approval rating. He’s as popular as ebola on a chemo ward – and yet, he is still 42 (FORTY-TWO) points ahead of Jeremy Corbyn.

                          Having not seen a policy since three Christmases ago, the Tories now hallucinate five before breakfast. To kick off conference, Johnson announced he would be building 40 new hospitals. (With what? Playmobil? Wine crates? We didn’t hear; the figure later seems to have been commuted to six.) Andrew Bridgen literally proposed a monorail. Also being promised was limitless cheap nuclear energy within 20 years. This really is fully automated luxury WTFery. I’m amazed they didn’t float mining the asteroid belt. Maybe during the election.

                          And so to the programme of events. Given where we are with Brexit, never has the usual portentous timetable looked more absurd. You could attend endless panels with titles such as “AI: Could we? Should we?” or “The future of capitalism”. JUST TELL US WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN IN FOUR WEEKS, YOU MAD BASTARDS. Johnson and Cummings’ commitment to a no-spoilers Brexit is so total that they haven’t even told Jacob Rees-Mogg or Arlene Foster their plan. But don’t worry. As John Redwood put it: “It will work because we’ve got some technology.”

                          But what technology? The Conservatives couldn’t even update their conference app. Throughout the four days, it still showed a welter of what we might call ghost ship events, such as a big Q&A with Rory Stewart, who was not in Manchester on account of not being in the Conservative party any more. Guys, you know if it’s digital, you can update it at any time, yes? Maybe it’s because the prime minister thinks “technology lessons” involve dancing poles. So they did try to change the app, but thought the way you did that was by twirling seductively into an inverted splits hold, while tossing your hair to Donna Summer’s She Works Hard for the Money.

                          Feeling the strain … Johnson.

                          You could learn a lot from freeze-framing the conference at exactly the same point a year apart. On the Tuesday morning last year, prime minister Theresa May was asked in a radio interview about the manner in which Boris Johnson had stolen all her conference headlines. She replied: “I’m concentrating on what is important, which is getting a good deal for the UK.” On the Tuesday morning this year, prime minister Boris Johnson was asked in a radio interview about Edwardes’ headline account of his grope. He replied: “I think what the public want to hear is about what we are doing to level up and unite the country.” I wonder where we’ll be in 2020. Maybe cabinet minister Nigel Farage will deflect from the emergence of his financial ties to the Russian government’s covert sex robot building programme with the words: “I am focused on what people want, which is delivering our domestic agenda.”

                          Like all his other urges, the PM can’t suppress his irritation at even being asked about such things. How can this still be happening to him, now he is king of the gods? I do feel Johnson has been historically hampered by his inability to conduct assignations with mortal women by disguising himself as a swan, say, or a shower of gold. He has only ever taken the form of Boris Johnson. That said, there is an enchanting picture of Jennifer Arcuri – the grant-receiving model/tech entrepreneur in whose pole-dancing-equipped flat Johnson is reported to have had afternoon technology lessons – in which Arcuri is shown looming over a London mayor-themed cake. In an image that might be captioned Attack of the 50 Foot Infosec Woman, Jennifer is gleefully biting the head of one of three fondant Boris Johnsons to adorn it. Did Zeus ever appear as an icing figurine? I must look it up before Priti Patel announces a book-burning initiative.

                          In general, the hall reaction to speakers was muted. This is a revenue-gathering sort of gathering. In recent years, the dwindling band of elderly activists has been gradually replaced by an army of lobbyists for one form of Big ****tery or another. Even cabinet emoji Liz Truss could barely raise a laugh, while Patel should slap a whole life tariff on Northern Powerhouse minister Jake Berry for the following: “The only homes we are not going to build in the north of England is Sherlock Holmes!” Jake, you can’t even build a joke. It feels incredibly unlikely that you’re going to be up to renewing the north.

                          The rest of her superb piece is linked below
                          Last edited by Cowboy; 7th-October-2019, 11:58.
                          I am the million man.


                            She's very good and I've read her even funnier than that. I admire the British ability to mock themselves (the Dail sketches can be excellent too). I was working in London when the PIRA ended the ceasefire with the Canary Wharf truck bomb, an English neighbour who was a psychoanalyst - we used to chat for a minute if we bumped into each other- the morning after I saw him and he came up to me: "That'll show them!"


                              Cheers Cowboy, I had read that one on the day and meant to post it here but forgot! "Sex Wonka" is quite good, hope it catches on.
                              Tis but a scratch.


                                Originally posted by tippete7trees View Post
                                Power is an aphrodisiac for women.
                                Tell us more Ron
                                Click image for larger version

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                                When things go wrong, blame McGahan