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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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  • fitzy73
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post

    I think that ignores the broad popularity of Corbyn's headline policies, seemingly even among a good chunk of those that ultimately voted for Johnson. I really don't think you can take the last GE as a referendum on social democratic policies given how Brexit just loomed large over everything, and also considering that Corbyn had been through years of bizarrely obsessive character assassination at the hands of the UK's biggest media outlets (including the Guardian).

    Instead of recognising the popularity of those policies, Labour have instead decided to concentrate on perceived centrist "electability". So far this seems to have amounted to very little more than Starmer doing his best Lib Dem impression while paying out of a libel case the party would have won and spending a full day publicly ignoring the fact that one of his MPs was (1) racially profiled and (2) rounded on by just about every online bigot and grifter in the UK.

    It's cowardice and it has done seemingly nothing to polling despite mind-boggling incompetence at just about every single level of the current Government.
    The 40% Tory vote is the Brexit vote. Labour won't eat into that until it's absolutely clear to those red wall Labour voters that Brexit was a pack of lies. As we have seen over the years, pretty much everyone would rather double down than admit they were wrong.

    Meanwhile Starmer is personally polling higher than Johnson, and about a million times higher than Corbyn ever was.

    I have no doubt the media and internal Labour politics sought to position Corbyn in this way, but the mixed messaging over the years didn't help either.

    Labour are an odd bunch though. If they could unite the centre and left of the party, they'd stand a better chance of chipping away at that core Tory/ Brexit 40%. Instead they are always fighting yesterday's battles.

    Last edited by fitzy73; 11-August-2020, 18:03.

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  • SkullinPints
    replied
    Originally posted by Major TNT View Post
    The bbc recently used the N word in one of their reports.
    That racism is plain to see, just look at the attacks on meghan markle - simply because she is not white.

    The same racism was played upon by those pushing brexit. Remember the news paper article picturing thousands of migrants 'invading' england?
    RE BBC Use of N Word ................from https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ts-radio-1xtra

    * Apparently only people of colour can ever dare utter the N word - even if the context is reporting (in itself a form of racism)
    * And this proves by your assertion that the BBC is racist.
    * The victim who was called N -and family wanted the word reported to show the damage inflicted



    The report, by the BBC social affairs correspondent Fiona Lamdin, repeated the language allegedly shouted during an attack on a young black man in Bristol.

    The BBC defended its decision, saying the inclusion of the racial slur was made with the approval of the victim and his family, who wanted to show the severity of the attack. It said the decision to broadcast the word followed discussions involving “senior editorial figures” and was preceded by a warning to viewers.

    The use of the word prompted more than 18,000 complaints to the BBC.

    On Saturday, the Radio 1Xtra presenter Sideman quit his job, saying he could not work with the BBC allowing “the N-word being said on national television by a white person”.



    Leave a comment:


  • Jenta
    replied
    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post

    I know you and BB think differently, but from my perspective it's easier to shift people from the right to the middle, rather than trying to bring them full on over to fully left wing ideology.

    I don't see those Corbynites making much political hay in the coming years. They might splinter off from main Labour, but they'll end up being more Socialist Worker types. They might have their hearts in the right place, but Britain, and England in particular, is a very conservative country, and they've next to no chance of making any real inroads.

    With an 80 seat Con majority, the only thing the bulk Labour party can do right now is to keep asking the difficult questions. They need 10% of that core Brexit vote to realise they have been duped. That will take time, and I don't expect much of a shift before January / Feb. Even then you've three more years of the Tories grifting Brexit for all it's worth.

    Britain is at a very dangerous crossroads. The next few months and years could see things turn pretty ugly, and quickly. A second winter wave of Covid, coupled with a WTO Brexit, and Christ knows what will happen.

    I've taken a leaf out of Harry's book and am stockpiling beans and shotguns.
    I think that ignores the broad popularity of Corbyn's headline policies, seemingly even among a good chunk of those that ultimately voted for Johnson. I really don't think you can take the last GE as a referendum on social democratic policies given how Brexit just loomed large over everything, and also considering that Corbyn had been through years of bizarrely obsessive character assassination at the hands of the UK's biggest media outlets (including the Guardian).

    Instead of recognising the popularity of those policies, Labour have instead decided to concentrate on perceived centrist "electability". So far this seems to have amounted to very little more than Starmer doing his best Lib Dem impression while paying out of a libel case the party would have won and spending a full day publicly ignoring the fact that one of his MPs was (1) racially profiled and (2) rounded on by just about every online bigot and grifter in the UK.

    It's cowardice and it has done seemingly nothing to polling despite mind-boggling incompetence at just about every single level of the current Government.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Major TNT View Post

    Good post. I just think england has a serious racism issue, its propagated by most of their media. The bbc recently used the N word in one of their reports.
    That racism is plain to see, just look at the attacks on meghan markle - simply because she is not white.

    The same racism was played upon by those pushing brexit. Remember the news paper article picturing thousands of migrants 'invading' england?
    I think many many countries have issues with racism, or exclusion/inequality of opportunities based on their cultural background. There was that crazy poster, which was roundly denounced by almost every one, but there will always be people who want to push the buttons of people they think they can manipulate into even more extreme action than they would take themselves. Britain is a multiracial society, and very largely, I believe, proud of that. What it isn’t is a particularly equal society, and those inequalities in opportunity are the cause of most of the problems. Like it or not, Boris’s desire to ‘level up’ is an attempt to address this- whether he is serious, and can take others with him, time will tell.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stanley
    replied
    Originally posted by Major TNT View Post

    Good post. I just think england has a serious racism issue, its propagated by most of their media. The bbc recently used the N word in one of their reports.
    That racism is plain to see, just look at the attacks on meghan markle - simply because she is not white.

    The same racism was played upon by those pushing brexit. Remember the news paper article picturing thousands of migrants 'invading' england?


    More inclined to believe Markle is not liked as she has stolen the heart and mind of a favourite Royal, Prince Harry, is determined into making herself and Harry a modern money making machine in the mould of the Beckhams or more likely the Kardashians, she places a very high value on herself, having already said their wedding was worth a Bn in terms of tourism revenue to the UK and she wants her % of the action, Harry must follow on or face a quickie divorce.

    Leave a comment:


  • Major TNT
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    My problem with the Brexit reference was that I couldn’t see what it had to do with the point you are making. I still don’t know. I am even more confused by the edited reference to the Windsors. Even a fairly casual familiarity with the media here would show that there is zero relationship between the support for Brexit (have you listened to the BBC in the last year?) and interest in (still less hostility towards, the most recent Mrs Windsor. If you want to find some crazed extremist who confabulates the two you can, but not only does that prove nothing, but I suspect it would embarrass you to see a similarly silly conflation of such disparate issues in Ireland. Nationalism is complex in Ireland, it is no less so here. I relish being Irish, and I read and listen to a great deal of Irish media, and, frankly, the portrayal and understanding of British Brexit motivations is puerile, the subtleties of attitudes toward the royal family, still less particular members of it, are even more so. It is, I agree, very odd to imagine that a blood line should determine who is head of state, but I for one find the belief that wine regularly changes into the blood of someone who (might have) lived 2000 years ago even more mystifying. Of course reasonable people take these things for the symbols they are, and move on, and long may we tolerate the right to do so.
    Good post. I just think england has a serious racism issue, its propagated by most of their media. The bbc recently used the N word in one of their reports.
    That racism is plain to see, just look at the attacks on meghan markle - simply because she is not white.

    The same racism was played upon by those pushing brexit. Remember the news paper article picturing thousands of migrants 'invading' england?

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Major TNT View Post

    I suppose the fact that meghan markle gets harsher treatment by the Brit press than mod edit prince andrew tells you something about brexit. So yea

    Please do not post unproven allegations on this forum. Thanks McC
    My problem with the Brexit reference was that I couldn’t see what it had to do with the point you are making. I still don’t know. I am even more confused by the edited reference to the Windsors. Even a fairly casual familiarity with the media here would show that there is zero relationship between the support for Brexit (have you listened to the BBC in the last year?) and interest in (still less hostility towards, the most recent Mrs Windsor. If you want to find some crazed extremist who confabulates the two you can, but not only does that prove nothing, but I suspect it would embarrass you to see a similarly silly conflation of such disparate issues in Ireland. Nationalism is complex in Ireland, it is no less so here. I relish being Irish, and I read and listen to a great deal of Irish media, and, frankly, the portrayal and understanding of British Brexit motivations is puerile, the subtleties of attitudes toward the royal family, still less particular members of it, are even more so. It is, I agree, very odd to imagine that a blood line should determine who is head of state, but I for one find the belief that wine regularly changes into the blood of someone who (might have) lived 2000 years ago even more mystifying. Of course reasonable people take these things for the symbols they are, and move on, and long may we tolerate the right to do so.

    Leave a comment:


  • Major TNT
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    brexit?
    I suppose the fact that meghan markle gets harsher treatment by the Brit press than mod edit prince andrew tells you something about brexit. So yea

    Please do not post unproven allegations on this forum. Thanks McC

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Major TNT View Post
    Vermin.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...effrey-epstein

    The sex offender Jeffrey Epstein allegedly tried to gather incriminating material against Prince Andrew by forcing an underage girl to have sex with him, according to newly released court documents.

    The papers released by a court in New York say the alleged encounter took place on the late US financier’s private island in the US Virgin Islands. A document claims Epstein instructed the girl, referred to as Jane Doe #3, but known to be Virginia Roberts Giuffre, to “give the prince whatever he demanded and report back to him on the details of the sexual abuse”.
    brexit?

    Leave a comment:


  • Major TNT
    replied
    Vermin.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...effrey-epstein

    The sex offender Jeffrey Epstein allegedly tried to gather incriminating material against Prince Andrew by forcing an underage girl to have sex with him, according to newly released court documents.

    The papers released by a court in New York say the alleged encounter took place on the late US financier’s private island in the US Virgin Islands. A document claims Epstein instructed the girl, referred to as Jane Doe #3, but known to be Virginia Roberts Giuffre, to “give the prince whatever he demanded and report back to him on the details of the sexual abuse”.

    Leave a comment:


  • fitzy73
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post
    I see an even bigger problem in the medium term for Labour to be honest. Whatever the faults of the Corbyn era (and admittedly, I see fewer than most), it's obvious that Corbyn himself, and his policies, had a major impact on young politically motivated people. I don't see the wooly centrism of Starmer convincing many of them. It might not be such a big issue were he to find a way to bring Northern voters that shifted Tory back into the fold but I think it will take a couple of election cycles before many of that voting bloc figure out how comprehensively they've been lied to.
    I know you and BB think differently, but from my perspective it's easier to shift people from the right to the middle, rather than trying to bring them full on over to fully left wing ideology.

    I don't see those Corbynites making much political hay in the coming years. They might splinter off from main Labour, but they'll end up being more Socialist Worker types. They might have their hearts in the right place, but Britain, and England in particular, is a very conservative country, and they've next to no chance of making any real inroads.

    With an 80 seat Con majority, the only thing the bulk Labour party can do right now is to keep asking the difficult questions. They need 10% of that core Brexit vote to realise they have been duped. That will take time, and I don't expect much of a shift before January / Feb. Even then you've three more years of the Tories grifting Brexit for all it's worth.

    Britain is at a very dangerous crossroads. The next few months and years could see things turn pretty ugly, and quickly. A second winter wave of Covid, coupled with a WTO Brexit, and Christ knows what will happen.

    I've taken a leaf out of Harry's book and am stockpiling beans and shotguns.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldschoolsocks
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post
    I see an even bigger problem in the medium term for Labour to be honest. Whatever the faults of the Corbyn era (and admittedly, I see fewer than most), it's obvious that Corbyn himself, and his policies, had a major impact on young politically motivated people. I don't see the wooly centrism of Starmer convincing many of them. It might not be such a big issue were he to find a way to bring Northern voters that shifted Tory back into the fold but I think it will take a couple of election cycles before many of that voting bloc figure out how comprehensively they've been lied to.
    is it not more the case that a lot of the Northern labour support stayed home?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jenta
    replied
    I see an even bigger problem in the medium term for Labour to be honest. Whatever the faults of the Corbyn era (and admittedly, I see fewer than most), it's obvious that Corbyn himself, and his policies, had a major impact on young politically motivated people. I don't see the wooly centrism of Starmer convincing many of them. It might not be such a big issue were he to find a way to bring Northern voters that shifted Tory back into the fold but I think it will take a couple of election cycles before many of that voting bloc figure out how comprehensively they've been lied to.

    Leave a comment:


  • fitzy73
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post
    On a related matter, I'm not sure the UK Labour Party has ever looked more lost. The party centrists and the right wing media carried out such an effective hit job on Corbyn and the left that I can't see how the party continues in its current form at all. The decision to settle the libel case was political and Starmer looks like a coward because of it. A split seems almost inevitable at this point.
    It wouldn't be the UK Labour party unless there was some some of schism or other.

    I think Starmer has done well since coming on board - he's evicerating Johnson at PMQs, and his personal numbers are higher than any Labour leader since Blair. With the party, he's between a rock and a hard place, and for all sorts of reasons he needs to draw a line under the Corbyn years - that was yesterday's battle.

    ​​
    The difficulty they face is 40% of the country support Brexit, and therefore the Conservatives. They aren't going to poll much higher until there is a fall off in support for Brexit, which could come sooner rather than later.

    It'll be interesting to see where things stand in a years time.

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  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post
    On a related matter, I'm not sure the UK Labour Party has ever looked more lost. The party centrists and the right wing media carried out such an effective hit job on Corbyn and the left that I can't see how the party continues in its current form at all. The decision to settle the libel case was political and Starmer looks like a coward because of it. A split seems almost inevitable at this point.

    McCluskey was certainly not happy. The strong implication in the leaked report (which Starmer has largely ignored) was that the people who had "blown the whistle" on Labour antisemitism had actually sat on and obstructed disciplinaries around antisemitism to create a problem for Corbyn.


    I don't know if Starmer is making a point to the Left or just trying to put a lid on the issue or what, but the people they paid money to yesterday used the disciplinary process to damage Corbyn, and were involved in numerous other schemes (including channeling campaign funding away from marginals).

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/k...-sacked-labour

    ​​​​​​
    https://novaramedia.com/2020/05/19/d...res-on-corbyn/


    I have plenty of issues with Corbynites, but these people are a shower of bastards.

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