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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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    Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
    Rumours going around that there will be a referendum attaching to the deal vote on Tuesday. Lots of kite-flying as the Tories around May scramble to avoid the inevitable defeat. Most governments don't go through with votes they know they will lose. May seems determined to do it though. Maybe it's martyrdom.
    May's deal, subject to a referendum, if it is possible to settle on such an emendment could have majority backing and is the most sensible way forward, but is not without difficulty, especially on the wording of the referendum and the number of options.

    Referendum would probably need 3 questions, Remain, Leave with no deal or May's deal. Although this would lead to charges of stacking against Brexit by having a split Brexit vote .... on balance probably the fairest way to do it.
    ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

    Originally Posted by mr chips
    AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

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      The problem is they have very little experience of transferrable voting. I'm not even sure if they can run a referendum on that basis - I *think* it has to be binary.
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        "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
        Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

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          Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
          The problem is they have very little experience of transferrable voting. I'm not even sure if they can run a referendum on that basis - I *think* it has to be binary.
          Each referendum is authorised by an individual act of Parliament, so I'm not sure that there's any standing rules as such. Particularly as they don't have any formal impact on legislation.

          They have traditionally been binary, but that's how they got into this mess in the first place.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

            Each referendum is authorised by an individual act of Parliament, so I'm not sure that there's any standing rules as such. Particularly as they don't have any formal impact on legislation.

            They have traditionally been binary, but that's how they got into this mess in the first place.
            I suppose that's value of not having a definitive, written constitution.

            Some talk of May running a referendum on a binary option of her deal V no deal. She's as mad as a bag of frogs if she tries that.

            I had the displeasure of listening to Ian Duncan Smith yesterday morning who, amongst other bat sh*t crazy ramblings, said a second referendum with a remain option would make the French riots seem tame.
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              ECJ ruled that Article 50 can be unilaterally withdrawn. Another little bit of spice for the mix!
              Tis but a scratch.

              Comment


                Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post

                I suppose that's value of not having a definitive, written constitution.

                Some talk of May running a referendum on a binary option of her deal V no deal. She's as mad as a bag of frogs if she tries that.

                I had the displeasure of listening to Ian Duncan Smith yesterday morning who, amongst other bat sh*t crazy ramblings, said a second referendum with a remain option would make the French riots seem tame.
                And yet Tommeh was only able to muster a smattering for his highly publicised Twatapolooza in London at the weekend.

                I don't think May could get a Deal vs No Deal Ref through Parliament, and she'd need to. I'm not even sure she could get her own deal onto a referendum, given it's about to be booted into the Thames.

                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  Vote about to be called off. More waffle to be added to the political declaration.

                  Comment


                    What does she think she's going to be able to put on the table? It's a total ****show.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      18 months negotiating a deal that won't even make it to a parliamentary vote. What a farce. She'll have to resign.
                      "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                        18 months negotiating a deal that won't even make it to a parliamentary vote. What a farce. She'll have to resign.
                        Presumably she's pulling out of the vote to avoid the calls for resignation that would follow a defeat.

                        She must really see stubbornness as a virtue in itself.

                        Imagine going to work every day knowing that you're going to achieve absolutely nothing, that you're dead in the water and that nothing is going to change.

                        You'd think at some point, given that she doesn't need the wage, that she'd resign just to go with some sense of dignity.

                        It's appalling ****ing narcissism. The worst Prime Minister since the war, and she's know it for 2 years.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          She is just running down the clock. Eventually, it will be her deal or no deal, because there will be no time to do anything else.

                          Comment


                            What's the next step if the WA doesn't make it to a vote? Does she go back to the EU looking for backstop concessions, get sent packing and then throw it to Parliament on the basis that it's the best deal available?

                            Appalling narcissism could actually be understating how bad this has gotten.

                            My sister is coming home from London for Christmas, I'm advising her to buy Euro now because I think this could get a whole lot worse.
                            "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
                              She is just running down the clock. Eventually, it will be her deal or no deal, because there will be no time to do anything else.
                              She hasn't a hope of bouncing Parliament in that manner, imo. She just doesn't have the authority to hold a government together through that process.

                              I'd say no deal is a clear danger, but I think she'd lose a vote of no confidence before that.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                                What's the next step if the WA doesn't make it to a vote? Does she go back to the EU looking for backstop concessions, get sent packing and then throw it to Parliament on the basis that it's the best deal available?

                                Appalling narcissism could actually be understating how bad this has gotten.

                                My sister is coming home from London for Christmas, I'm advising her to buy Euro now because I think this could get a whole lot worse.
                                The grim reality is that no one knows.

                                According to every precedent in the UK's unwritten constitution, she should resign at this point. I wouldn't say we're far off the Queen getting drawn into a constitutional crisis.

                                The apparent reality is that the UK currently has a government that is unable to pass its business. By most measures in the UK, that means it has no government.

                                May is a PM in a minority administration (DUP or no, she doesn't hold a formal Parliamentary majority) who can't pass major measures on the most pressing matter facing the country.

                                She should be resigning. But we're through the looking glass in terms of a ****ed up political world.



                                To recap where we are: The Government has spent two years negotiating a settlement with the EU to decide the fate of the country for decades. Every other major form of Government business has effectively been suspended. No other major pieces of legislation have been passed. The PM now can't put the product of that two year's negotiation before the house, still less get it passed.

                                The UK is effectively without a government.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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