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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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    Originally posted by Pythagoras View Post
    What does radicalised even mean?
    www.dictionary.com

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      Originally posted by Mike Gibson View Post
      very helpful, thanks.

      Radicalization is a process by which an individual or group comes to adopt increasingly extreme political, social, or religious ideals and aspirations that reject or undermine the status quo or reject and/or undermine contemporary ideas and expressions of freedom of choice.
      There is nothing necessarily inherently wrong with becoming radicalised according to that definition. Neither does it have to occur under the influence of others.

      So I guess that it's possible to say that the Mair guy became radicalised, it doesn't imply that others are responsible.

      Comment


        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
        They had a Tory predecessor paying tribute to her on the wireless this morning so I wouldn't say it is the safest of seats.


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        I think it fair to say that she was popular and respected across the parties and not the type of person the Labour party could afford to lose. Hard not to be cynical about 'gesture' politics but not standing is a good call. Interesting to see what UKIP do, I suspect they will stand..

        I think it also fair enough to point to the right wing background of her killer - something the BBC seems to be a bit coy about - although whatever his political links I think it reasonable to surmise that he was not of sound mind.
        ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

        Originally Posted by mr chips
        AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

        Comment


          Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post
          I think it fair to say that she was popular and respected across the parties and not the type of person the Labour party could afford to lose. Hard not to be cynical about 'gesture' politics but not standing is a good call. Interesting to see what UKIP do, I suspect they will stand..

          I think it also fair enough to point to the right wing background of her killer - something the BBC seems to be a bit coy about - although whatever his political links I think it reasonable to surmise that he was not of sound mind.
          I'd be surprised if UKIP stand. Though it will be a few months down the line, I suppose.

          Interesting piece from AA Gill in the Times. Written before yesterdays events.

          "Brexit: AA Gill argues for ‘In’
          We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia
          It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
          It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
          Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
          We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
          The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
          And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
          All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.




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          Comment


            There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
            The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
            Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
            We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
            Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
            When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
            Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
            Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’
            You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
            Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
            The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
            There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
            The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
            Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
            I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in."
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            Comment


              Thats a cracking read
              My computer thinks I'm gay
              What's the difference anyway
              When all the people do all day
              Is stare into a phone

              Comment


                Originally posted by A.A. Gill
                For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective
                AA Gill writes very entertainingly, but that, for example, doesn't have the ring of truth to it.
                And the people who are pro brexit are not just R.N. (ret'd) types but ordinary working people who are seeing the effect first-hand of the extraordinary levels of immigration into their communities and are fearful that all staying in the EU promises is more of the same.
                Last edited by Pythagoras; 17-June-2016, 13:46.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                  Winning GEs is not about, and hasn't for the best part of forty years been about, plumbers, care home assistants etc. In 2003 the country was doing well and the plumbers etc were finally, for the first time since Thatcher snatched away their milk and their security, starting to benefit from this mythical hydra, supply and demand that had, hitherto, done nothing but shaft them. "Hey this is great",they said, there aren't enough plumbers so we can charge a bit more to add value to middle classes' houses, "Hey this is great", they said there aren't enough care home assistants so the middle classes might have to forego a bit more of their inheritances to pay us a fairer amount. In 2004 the government reasserted the nasty hydra and supply and demand started shafting the disenfranchised again. I genuinely don't believe that this working class blames the immigrants, but they do blame the politicians who let them in and this referendum vote has given them a voice.

                  The problem is that the people who told have them they have a voice are Nigel and Boris. Whilst the usual suspects, the "elite" told them that all of the rest of the "elite" are saying you are stupid because you want Brexit or you are racist because you want Brexit; hang on, they say, we are not stupid and we are not racist, F'CK OFF!!!!

                  Boris and Nigel have roused the rabble, no doubt, but there was fertile ground because the people who have paid the price of immigration, and there is a price for immigration, no matter what the statisticians say, have a voice in this vote, unlike in a GE.



                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  It's a tidy narrative, PP, but it's just not true. The current resentment of immigration in the UK has been building, predictably, since 2008 and the crash.

                  Those people weren't getting shafted in 2006 or 2007. 2008 is the year zero for the current emotional state of the UK, from crisis through messages about austerity through to the expanded use of things like zero hours contracts. Those, for instance, were a direct response to the moves made at the tail end of the last Labour administration to extend employee rights to agency workers. Yet they're blended into one big narrative about immigration impacting the security of british jobs.

                  You're right that people feel that way. But that's because the worker, at almost every point in modern history, has proven to be spectacularly bad at identifying who is ****ing him.

                  People in Barnsley aren't on zero hours contracts in Asos warehouses because of the arrival of Polish plumbers. They're there because their own governments spectacularly mismanaged the mining and steel industries.
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                    It's a tidy narrative, PP, but it's just not true. The current resentment of immigration in the UK has been building, predictably, since 2008 and the crash.

                    Those people weren't getting shafted in 2006 or 2007. 2008 is the year zero for the current emotional state of the UK, from crisis through messages about austerity through to the expanded use of things like zero hours contracts. Those, for instance, were a direct response to the moves made at the tail end of the last Labour administration to extend employee rights to agency workers. Yet they're blended into one big narrative about immigration impacting the security of british jobs.

                    You're right that people feel that way. But that's because the worker, at almost every point in modern history, has proven to be spectacularly bad at identifying who is ****ing him.

                    People in Barnsley aren't on zero hours contracts in Asos warehouses because of the arrival of Polish plumbers. They're there because their own governments spectacularly mismanaged the mining and steel industries.
                    The millions voting for UKIP and to leave the EU indicate that they don't believe that narrative. I am not saying my narrative is correct, I am saying that it is the narrative that people believe to be the correct. And they will still believe it if the country, reluctantly, votes not to leave the EU.


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                    Comment


                      Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                      The millions voting for UKIP and to leave the EU indicate that they don't believe that narrative. I am not saying my narrative is correct, I am saying that it is the narrative that people believe to be the correct. And they will still believe it if the country, reluctantly, votes not to leave the EU.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


                      I agree. I think a broad sense of grievance has coalesced around the issue of EU membership. I think that people have, as they always will in tough times, bought into the notion that their hardships are related to immigration (and have short memories about how they felt on the issue pre-2008, when Michale Howard was beaten out the gate on an anti-immigration ticket).

                      I also think that people who've been left with little vested interest in the way things are currently run have decided that a change to the status quo is a good thing.

                      What's scary is that the very things they're objecting to - insecurity at work and poor access to housing mainly - have largely been brought upon them by the same ideology that drives those leading the Brexit movement.

                      If anyone in the British working class thinks that Farage and Hannan are going to improve their situation they need their heads read.
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        Well at least Brexit could open a path for a left led Labour government to legally implement its policies, something such a govt could not do in an EU captured by neocon zombies and with the far right of France and eastern European govts waiting to pounce on the levers of EU power.
                        Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2021.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                          I agree. I think a broad sense of grievance has coalesced around the issue of EU membership. I think that people have, as they always will in tough times, bought into the notion that their hardships are related to immigration (and have short memories about how they felt on the issue pre-2008, when Michale Howard was beaten out the gate on an anti-immigration ticket).

                          I also think that people who've been left with little vested interest in the way things are currently run have decided that a change to the status quo is a good thing.

                          What's scary is that the very things they're objecting to - insecurity at work and poor access to housing mainly - have largely been brought upon them by the same ideology that drives those leading the Brexit movement.

                          If anyone in the British working class thinks that Farage and Hannan are going to improve their situation they need their heads read.
                          It could have been that the immigration ticket was beaten out of the gate because of the way the FPTP system works. I know you don't credit the Conservatives with much intelligence, but do you really think they ran on an anti immigration agenda on a whim? The section of society for whom immigration is an issue was outside of the section of society that decides the results of GEs. I would contend that this referendum fits with that narrative, as does 2015 and 2010. Blame it on austerity if you want, but the working class people with whom I worked from 2003 to 2009 had a remarkable degree of unanimity. I know because I disagreed with them.


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                            The sharp end of Brexit will be felt at the UK's land border ie slap bang in the middle (well a bit to the North) of Ireland.

                            The border which has all put disappeared in practical terms in terms of trade and the movement of people will be back - the economic,social and security implications will be negative, quite how negative we will hopefully not find out but the ramifications for Northern Ireland are far greater than for Surrey or Edinburgh or London - but Northern Ireland will hardly register as a factor for the vast majority of those going to the polls on Thursday. Very worrying.
                            ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                            Originally Posted by mr chips
                            AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                              It could have been that the immigration ticket was beaten out of the gate because of the way the FPTP system works. I know you don't credit the Conservatives with much intelligence, but do you really think they ran on an anti immigration agenda on a whim? The section of society for whom immigration is an issue was outside of the section of society that decides the results of GEs. I would contend that this referendum fits with that narrative, as does 2015 and 2010. Blame it on austerity if you want, but the working class people with whom I worked from 2003 to 2009 had a remarkable degree of unanimity. I know because I disagreed with them.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                              Polling at the time showed immigration to be consistently way down the list of voter priorities. There were complaints - there always are - but Blair never saw a triangulation point that he didn't want to hit.

                              The entire sentiment of the country was in a very different place in the early 2000's. I didn't realize living there how much that had changed - you don't really when it's happening around you.

                              These last couple of months have been the firs time that I'm actively glad that I no longer live there, and extremely uncertain that I'll ever return.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Where you are isn't exactly a socialist utopia either though.

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