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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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  • Major TNT
    replied
    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
    It's probably a little bit of both, but fairly incredible nonetheless.

    Ultimately I think it's trying to get the EU to blink first, which isn't going to happen.

    However, given the choice of another humiliation and accepting the EUs terms, or going rogue, I have little doubt that they would do the latter. People in Ireland need to wake up to how utterly malignant these bastards are.
    Boris and the tories reckless approach to the good friday agreement and the fragile peace in the northern part of Ireland is being fueled by FG & FF continually cosying up to the arelene foster and the dup.
    Leo and meehole are playing a very dangerous game purely to prolong their own electoral situation.

    Leave a comment:


  • tippete7trees
    replied
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

    I think they're more worried about Kier Starmer and Boris's work ethic and appetite for his role than whats happening with Barnier.

    Funny how ****e polls and this arrive within days of each other
    Starmer's forensic witness questioning is Boris' worst nightmare. If some of the PMs questions sessions recently had been a boxing match, the ref would have wrapped his arms around Boris to save his life. He makes Boris look more like Vicky Pollard than Vicky Pollard. Boris: "Yeah but, no but, yeah but but but yeah but, we are the GREATEST government ever!! with the lowest pandemic deaths except for the 50,000 old codgers who would be dead already if we didnt win Brexit yeah and its all lies started by Jeremy Corbyn who everybody knows was in the IRA and Isis!!!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Cowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
    It's probably a little bit of both, but fairly incredible nonetheless.

    Ultimately I think it's trying to get the EU to blink first, which isn't going to happen.

    However, given the choice of another humiliation and accepting the EUs terms, or going rogue, I have little doubt that they would do the latter. People in Ireland need to wake up to how utterly malignant these bastards are.
    Boris went to get a headbanger. Australia provided.

    Click image for larger version

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    Leave a comment:


  • fitzy73
    replied
    It's probably a little bit of both, but fairly incredible nonetheless.

    Ultimately I think it's trying to get the EU to blink first, which isn't going to happen.

    However, given the choice of another humiliation and accepting the EUs terms, or going rogue, I have little doubt that they would do the latter. People in Ireland need to wake up to how utterly malignant these bastards are.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by tippete7trees View Post
    Bring it on. The problem the Ergs have is they think the EU is bluffing. They're not. Boris will cave in.
    I think they're more worried about Kier Starmer and Boris's work ethic and appetite for his role than whats happening with Barnier.

    Funny how ****e polls and this arrive within days of each other

    Leave a comment:


  • tippete7trees
    replied
    Bring it on. The problem the Ergs have is they think the EU is bluffing. They're not. Boris will cave in.

    Leave a comment:


  • fitzy73
    replied
    Things about to get very spicy this week.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status...674160134?s=19

    Leave a comment:


  • lilleexile
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post

    Pure centrism is dead, has been for years. The Tories know this, that's why their leader is Boris Johnson. The centrist position regarding Brexit would have been to remain and 52% of the population voted against that. The destruction of the planet, the appalling concentration of wealth in the Western world and the fact that people seem intent on electing bigots and grifters means sensible and progressive solutions are more vital now than ever. Unfortunately it's an uphill struggle because the message is currently controlled by people intent on, for one reason or another, keeping those bigots and grifters in power. A struggle that people like Keir Starmer and Joe Biden just don't seem interested in taking on*. I absolutely agree that Keir Starmer and Joe Biden would be better than either current incumbent, but I don't see them as the needed change.

    *I will admit that Joe Biden's recent soundings on the "Green New Deal" are encouraging.
    Not a pop at you Jenta, but 52% of the population of the UK did not vote to leave. It was 52% of those who voted:



    https://www.indy100.com/article/brex...charts-7399226

    Amazing how propaganda works!
    Attached Files
    Last edited by lilleexile; 13-August-2020, 16:18.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post

    I think you may have missed the point. Labour's policies were broadly popular, so the factors leading people to vote Tory in otherwise traditional Labour heartlands were obviously not based on the notion that "nationalising the railways is too expensive". No one seemed to be too concerned when Johnson started picking liberally from the Labour manifesto post-election by the way, without even a single nod to how he proposed to pay for it.

    I'll be honest, I stopped reading the rest after the "rampant anti-Semitism made Labour unelectable" piece. I've been through this with people before and it always becomes readily apparent that, if you think anti-Semitism in Labour was in any way rampant, or that the only alternative to apparent anti-Semitism was to vote for Boris ****ing Johnson and a party crammed to the hilt with bigots, then your concern, frankly, does not lie with protecting minorities.
    I doubt you know anything about my desire, indeed efforts, to protect minorities- which perhaps leaves you ill-positioned to judge, nor is intention the conservatism I support to protect the elite. It would reflect a remarkable degree of lemming-like lack of self interest for so many, from so many different parts of society to vote blue on that basis. I'm not convinced about the popularity of Labour's policies in the last election, but there was certainly a popular view that they were retrograde and implausible- and that is why they really got little traction. The massive borrowing we have seen in Covid was the only feasible way of dealing with an economic disaster different to any we have faced, but a significantly different approach to investment and abandoning austerity was well signalled before the election.

    Leave a comment:


  • rathbaner
    replied
    Absoutely true about Labour Party policies.
    Anyone who has had to negotiate rail travel across the UK can tell you that privatisation is a disaster.

    Similarly the privatisation of the telecoms network in Ireland which has cost us billions in subsidies and opportunity costs since it happened. It should've been renationalised with some of the money that will be pissed away on the privatised National Broadband Plan. Instead we're paying 3bn euro to repeat the mistake.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jenta
    replied
    Originally posted by Wallyman View Post

    The notion that centrism is flat on its ass is the reason that Labour did so poorly in the last election. If they want to win elections the need centrists (ie the majority of the population) to vote for them. Instead those centrists gave the Tories a massive majority.
    Pure centrism is dead, has been for years. The Tories know this, that's why their leader is Boris Johnson. The centrist position regarding Brexit would have been to remain and 52% of the population voted against that. The destruction of the planet, the appalling concentration of wealth in the Western world and the fact that people seem intent on electing bigots and grifters means sensible and progressive solutions are more vital now than ever. Unfortunately it's an uphill struggle because the message is currently controlled by people intent on, for one reason or another, keeping those bigots and grifters in power. A struggle that people like Keir Starmer and Joe Biden just don't seem interested in taking on*. I absolutely agree that Keir Starmer and Joe Biden would be better than either current incumbent, but I don't see them as the needed change.

    *I will admit that Joe Biden's recent soundings on the "Green New Deal" are encouraging.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wallyman
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post

    Maybe if the centre of the party realised that centrism is dead flat on its ass they could see the long-term economic and social benefit of nationalisation of vital industry and taxation of the wealth, rather than trying their best to say nothing of substance, ever. As you said though, always fighting yesterday's battles.

    "Look at those Tories there, aren't they a bit naff?" - Labour centrism.
    The notion that centrism is flat on its ass is the reason that Labour did so poorly in the last election. If they want to win elections the need centrists (ie the majority of the population) to vote for them. Instead those centrists gave the Tories a massive majority.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jenta
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    Motherhood and apple pie is an eternally attractive menu option, but fortunately enough people thought about both the cost of the ingredients, and the competence of the baker.
    I think you may have missed the point. Labour's policies were broadly popular, so the factors leading people to vote Tory in otherwise traditional Labour heartlands were obviously not based on the notion that "nationalising the railways is too expensive". No one seemed to be too concerned when Johnson started picking liberally from the Labour manifesto post-election by the way, without even a single nod to how he proposed to pay for it.

    I'll be honest, I stopped reading the rest after the "rampant anti-Semitism made Labour unelectable" piece. I've been through this with people before and it always becomes readily apparent that, if you think anti-Semitism in Labour was in any way rampant, or that the only alternative to apparent anti-Semitism was to vote for Boris ****ing Johnson and a party crammed to the hilt with bigots, then your concern, frankly, does not lie with protecting minorities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jenta
    replied
    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post

    The 40% Tory vote is the Brexit vote. Labour won't eat into that until it's absolutely clear to those red wall Labour voters that Brexit was a pack of lies. As we have seen over the years, pretty much everyone would rather double down than admit they were wrong.

    Meanwhile Starmer is personally polling higher than Johnson, and about a million times higher than Corbyn ever was.

    I have no doubt the media and internal Labour politics sought to position Corbyn in this way, but the mixed messaging over the years didn't help either.

    Labour are an odd bunch though. If they could unite the centre and left of the party, they'd stand a better chance of chipping away at that core Tory/ Brexit 40%. Instead they are always fighting yesterday's battles.
    Maybe if the centre of the party realised that centrism is dead flat on its ass they could see the long-term economic and social benefit of nationalisation of vital industry and taxation of the wealth, rather than trying their best to say nothing of substance, ever. As you said though, always fighting yesterday's battles.

    "Look at those Tories there, aren't they a bit naff?" - Labour centrism.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenta View Post

    I think that ignores the broad popularity of Corbyn's headline policies, seemingly even among a good chunk of those that ultimately voted for Johnson. I really don't think you can take the last GE as a referendum on social democratic policies given how Brexit just loomed large over everything, and also considering that Corbyn had been through years of bizarrely obsessive character assassination at the hands of the UK's biggest media outlets (including the Guardian).

    Instead of recognising the popularity of those policies, Labour have instead decided to concentrate on perceived centrist "electability". So far this seems to have amounted to very little more than Starmer doing his best Lib Dem impression while paying out of a libel case the party would have won and spending a full day publicly ignoring the fact that one of his MPs was (1) racially profiled and (2) rounded on by just about every online bigot and grifter in the UK.

    It's cowardice and it has done seemingly nothing to polling despite mind-boggling incompetence at just about every single level of the current Government.
    Motherhood and apple pie is an eternally attractive menu option, but fortunately enough people thought about both the cost of the ingredients, and the competence of the baker. Moreover, the rampant anti-semitism, inequity of internal party discipline, and lack of clarity regarding Europe, made labour unelectable, and that in the face of a very divided, Boris led ( at best marmite), government party with enough recent history to have damned its chances that is a remarkable achievement. If one only thinks about power, Starmer has made a good start, but has had a free ride from the BBC and some other media, because Boris will not appear, if not actual bias (although in some cases I honestly think it is so). If one thinks about policy, the vacillation regarding Brexit, reopening of schools, racial profiling, etc it is far less clear. We did at least know what Corbyn stood for, perhaps it will become clearer in time what Starmer stands for. As to the mind-boggling incompetence etc etc, I think time will tell- the pandemic has been one heck of a shock to all political systems- and we will not know how well anyone has responded until this time next year- if then. In the mean time, minimise death, the long term damage to our youth and economy, and use what has happened to think carefully about the countries/world we had become, and what we can do to redress the policies and inequalities that have made us so vulnerable.

    Leave a comment:

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