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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-19

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    Originally posted by leftwinger View Post
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...liberal-europe

    The Dutch answer to anti social behaviour in council housing.
    I wonder if those are gated communities?

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      Shipping containers would be useful to address homelessness.


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        Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post
        Shipping containers would be useful to address homelessness. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        They'd be like ovens this weather.

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          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
          Another example of EU democracy in action?
          I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse PP, but Article 50 was signed by the the elected British govt under the Lisbon Treaty.

          The notion that the Germans abd French will happily sign up to pro UK trade agreement post Brexit is fantasy. They'll just have received a mighty kick to the knackers, and I full expect them to kick as hard back.

          http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...ip-if-he-loses
          Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

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            Originally posted by leftwinger View Post
            http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...liberal-europe

            The Dutch answer to anti social behaviour in council housing.
            The above link is to a reactive article composed by a typical soppy Guardian hand-wringer.

            The original report is here, and includes a photo and clarification that "anti-social tenants will be housed in converted shipping containers, such as these already used by students."

            So, if they're good enough for students .....................



            Last edited by Old Dog; 1st-June-2016, 22:16.
            New infraction avoidance policy: a post may be described as imbecilic, but its author should never be described as an imbecile.

            Comment


              Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
              I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse PP, but Article 50 was signed by the the elected British govt under the Lisbon Treaty.

              The notion that the Germans abd French will happily sign up to pro UK trade agreement post Brexit is fantasy. They'll just have received a mighty kick to the knackers, and I full expect them to kick as hard back.

              http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...ip-if-he-loses
              Given the balance of trade between Germany and the U.K., I can't see Merkel playing hard ball. They won't want to be seen to be rolling over but, at the end of the day, if Boris doesn't like a deal and says he isn't having it what can Germany do about it? Invade? An accommodation will be negotiated, it won't be perfect for either side and will probably involve EU citizens having the right to still come to the uk, but a way will be found. It is looking like it will have to be as well. Unless someone starts selling reasons for the UK to be part of the EU rather than reasons why they shouldn't leave, which they are not buying.


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                Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                Given the balance of trade between Germany and the U.K., I can't see Merkel playing hard ball. They won't want to be seen to be rolling over but, at the end of the day, if Boris doesn't like a deal and says he isn't having it what can Germany do about it? Invade? An accommodation will be negotiated, it won't be perfect for either side and will probably involve EU citizens having the right to still come to the uk, but a way will be found. It is looking like it will have to be as well. Unless someone starts selling reasons for the UK to be part of the EU rather than reasons why they shouldn't leave, which they are not buying.


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                There is no way the UK will get an attractive deal - balance of trade or not. If they did and it is better to be outside than in then we will see an end to the EU. Denmark and Sweden will be the first. Then you will see agitation in Ireland which might happen anyway because of the border.


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                  Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post
                  There is no way the UK will get an attractive deal - balance of trade or not. If they did and it is better to be outside than in then we will see an end to the EU. Denmark and Sweden will be the first. Then you will see agitation in Ireland which might happen anyway because of the border.


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                  The British public see this argument as more of the same scare stories. If the EU set about making it difficult for the UK to leave the club that will not play well with the increasing number of Eurosceptics springing up throughout the continent. The argument is being lost because the wrong story is being told, this is more of the wrong story.


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                    I've become a referendum-sceptic. If you're not careful, you'll get the wrong answer for the wrong reason.

                    If immigration becomes the key reason for a vote to leave, that's a lot of good reasons for staying being shouted down by one, albeit legit, concern. While referendums are a core instrument of democracy, that doesn't mean that they're necessarily a good idea.
                    "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                    Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

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                      Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post
                      I've become a referendum-sceptic. If you're not careful, you'll get the wrong answer for the wrong reason.

                      If immigration becomes the key reason for a vote to leave, that's a lot of good reasons for staying being shouted down by one, albeit legit, concern. While referendums are a core instrument of democracy, that doesn't mean that they're necessarily a good idea.
                      The solution to that is more referendums not fewer.
                      Say you treat someone like sh1t all the time, making them do this and that without consulting them and go back on promises you'd made earlier.
                      Then one day you need to ask their permission to do this one thing and you say 'pretty please will you agree to deess, it's for your own good', in a wheedling voice.
                      Well, what are they going to say?
                      They'll say fukk off with yourself, we'll agree to nothing you ask, you domineering, lying bsatard.

                      And then you'll say the people can't be trusted in referendums to answer the actual question asked.

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                        I thought the referendum would be a cathartic opportunity for the UK to endorse the EU. I thought the argument would be won on the basis that the EU is a positive in peoples' lives. Unfortunately the debate has been all about the dangers of leaving rather than the benefits of joining/ remaining. There has not been a single reference to the inherent problems of the EU that need addressing which makes the institution look even more remote. If Remain had been brave enough to treat the electorate as grown ups and admit that the EU has fundamental problems that need root and branch reform, the electorate might have weighed up the balance of probabilities (there are no certainties in this debate) and concluded it was worth sticking with the EU.


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                          Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post
                          I've become a referendum-sceptic. If you're not careful, you'll get the wrong answer for the wrong reason.

                          If immigration becomes the key reason for a vote to leave, that's a lot of good reasons for staying being shouted down by one, albeit legit, concern. While referendums are a core instrument of democracy, that doesn't mean that they're necessarily a good idea.
                          Well just like the Scottish referendum, the genie is out of the bottle and, whatever the result of this referendum, it won't be the last.


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                            Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                            The British public see this argument as more of the same scare stories. If the EU set about making it difficult for the UK to leave the club that will not play well with the increasing number of Eurosceptics springing up throughout the continent. The argument is being lost because the wrong story is being told, this is more of the wrong story.


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                            If I tell my five year old not to stick his hand in the fire, it's not a scare story. If I tell someone not to jump off Sarsfield bridge, it's not a scare story.

                            If we tell someone that the EU delivers a raft of beneifts, and those will be lost if they leave, it's not a scare story. It's the truth.

                            And the idea that Germany will soften its cough for a few car sales? Trade that off against the fact that they will bid hard to relocate UK car manufacture to Germany and it seems like fantasy land.
                            Last edited by Balla Boy; 2nd-June-2016, 08:11.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                              I thought the referendum would be a cathartic opportunity for the UK to endorse the EU. I thought the argument would be won on the basis that the EU is a positive in peoples' lives. Unfortunately the debate has been all about the dangers of leaving rather than the benefits of joining/ remaining. There has not been a single reference to the inherent problems of the EU that need addressing which makes the institution look even more remote. If Remain had been brave enough to treat the electorate as grown ups and admit that the EU has fundamental problems that need root and branch reform, the electorate might have weighed up the balance of probabilities (there are no certainties in this debate) and concluded it was worth sticking with the EU.


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                              Well weren't david cameron's recent negotiations around the EU supposedly about being able to return with the required reforms so he could come back and campaign on those? And didn't he get little or nothing plus a few cold shoulders and some lectures to boot from various european pms (including God help us, the Polish PM).
                              How was he going to spin the positive angle after that.
                              Last edited by Pythagoras; 2nd-June-2016, 08:29.

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                                I have yet to see anyone clearly articulate the benefits of the EU to Britain, outside of access to the single market.

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